“The TRUTH About Ketogenic Diet” What A REAL Doctor Has To Say (Dr Dominic D’agostino))

“The TRUTH About Ketogenic Diet” What A REAL Doctor Has To Say (Dr Dominic D’agostino))


yo whaddup whaddup man big granite Carter I recently changed my name to King keto cuz you know I’m big on a ketogenic diet doing it for over a year I’ve had amazing health benefits a mental clarity my cholesterol dropped over a hundred points I’ve been able to put on muscle and stay lean and when I cut I’m able to cut fat and maintain a muscle but it was even better as I have a lot of ton of energy when I do it and I was I’ve helped a lot of other people with that too like yeah I’m the kid Oh King but unfortunately I am not the real keto king is dr. Dom D’Agostino alright he is a medical researcher and real doctor who is basically pioneered a lot of the information that’s out here about the ketogenic diet and it’s someone who I’ve actually looked up to when I was first getting into keto he’s someone whose work really inspired me you know so it’s an honor to interview him we’re gonna talk about how to do the ketogenic diet all the different ways you may be able to benefit from it and then we’re also gonna most importantly to spill all the myths you know every time I talk about keto there’s always someone in the comments saying is gonna kill you or you know it’s bad for your health or it’s not sustainable and we’re going to dispel each and every one of those rumors one by one DOM is an esteemed legit medical doctor so you guys hear this stuff for me they go Brandon’s just a dumb bro or a dumb jock and that’s true right so that’s why I wanted to get a legit doctor a legit researcher on this video for you to really get the facts if you don’t believe me men believe the doctors believe that the people who are pioneering the advancement is a help so not any further ado is my interview with the great Dominique the egg stealer [Music] hey what’s going on guys this is Brandon Carter and I’m here with a very special guest this is dr. Dom I always say and make your last name wrong D’Agostino that was perfect yeah nice nice I mean DOM is a would you call yourself a scientist or a doctor or yeah I’m a research scientist I’m a faculty at USF so I do teaching so half of what I do is teach being like medical students and then the other half is research and you have a lot of you have a lot of studies that have been you know like peer-reviewed journals like you’re highly acclaimed you know people and you’ve also probably heard them on Joe Rogan’s podcast Tim Ferriss podcast bulletproof radio they’ve asked for you like everywhere everywhere and your specialist in the keto ketogenic diet yeah yeah I think that’s that’s kind of the cornerstone of my research but we do I’m a physiologist two and a pharmacologist so we also do you know drug research we do cancer research on various things so and that’s probably what makes me a little bit different is that I do have my hands in a lot of different pots and I do study a lot of different things from the ketogenic diet and different versions of the ketogenic diet to even the development of ketone supplements that can mimic certain aspects of the diet yeah I want to get into all this how it pertains to the ketogenic diet have a pertain to cancer and actually um ketone supplements but first but just for those who don’t know what the ketogenic diet is and they’re sick of me telling them about it can you maybe someone’s smart and if you give them a brief overview I’d be great yeah it’s real simple actually in the simplest terms it’s a macronutrient ratio of the diet in terms of fats proteins and carbohydrates that gets your body to switch to using fat and ketone bodies for fuel and the origins of the diet date back to the effects of fasting and fasting kind of the ketogenic diet mimics fasting in many ways and that it gets your body into this state of ketosis kind of dependent upon the suppression of the hormone insulin and we know that when we suppress insulin it really drives our body into a fat-burning mode yeah in the 1920s they realized that we could sustain this state of ketosis which was only associated with fasting they could sustain it we had the diet that would allow someone to stay in ketosis indefinitely if they had seizures right so if you shifted the diet to include primarily fat moderate amount of protein enough to prevent protein deficiency and a tiny amount of carbohydrates just you know a small amount from from fiber and things like that that we could maintain the state so dating back a century ago the diet was formulated specifically for epilepsy so it’s not a fad yeah it’s actually a metabolic based therapy that yeah first seizure disorders and then over the years I think the biggest application now is for weight loss you know fat loss and and maybe type 2 diabetes is becoming kind of like the low-hanging fruit people are very responsive to the ketogenic diet it quickly gets them off of insulin and drugs to control their glucose levels but there’s like a diet instead of taking drugs people are you can actually like this change in their diet absolutely yeah food is medicine that’s the whole kind of thing right and and the ketogenic diet you know and I kind of emphasize that it is a very powerful metabolic based therapy that needs if you’re going to use it for the metabolic management of a disease you should really team up with the registered dietician who’s trained to administer the ketogenic diet especially like what you would call the classic ketogenic diet which is pretty strict and needs to be regimented to sustain higher levels of ketosis that mean therapy in the classic is that’s like 80 to 90 percent fat that’s right yeah and that that would for pediatric epilepsy where with a doll a Pepsi they use what’s called a modified ketogenic diet or a modified Atkins and that’s about 20 to 25 percent protein and maybe 60 to 70 percent fat and that’s what people are also using that that’s particularly protocol that’s what I do right and yeah I tried everything I’m over here winging stuff and that’s what they use for like body compositions because a lot of mothers limiters are our concern but with body composition is there any benefits over this like if you wanted to lose weight the ketogenic diet as for body composition as opposed to just regular caloric restriction or a caloric deficit I mean what are the advantages that a ketogenic diet over that yeah absolutely I think there was a lot and I think that people are realizing that there are many benefits to people you know and and it’s the the ketogenic diet is not a fad and it’s never going to die out because it works it works but for some people I would say in a body recomposition kind of scenario is that they don’t tolerate carbs – well like from a physiological standpoint but even almost from a psychological standpoint like being able to do calculate your macros to you know calorie restrict with certain amount of carbs it sends people’s glucose up and down throughout the day and insulin up and down when you’re bowling carbohydrates throughout the day whereas if you approach body composition alterations or you know bodybuilding fitness or whatever with a ketogenic diet or a low-carb diet that puts you into ketosis the it suppresses the hormone insulin and it essentially abolish Azur attenuates those spikes and glucose and insulin that can trigger cravings for things so it allows you it makes calorie restriction more feasible and easier to do you know but we have to understand too that when we’re calorie restricting that’s impacting our overall metabolism over time so our metabolism changes as we’re losing weight and even as our body composition changes if we get lean we’re are sensitive to things like you know insulin and leptin and ghrelin and these these types of things that have effects on our appetite so I think it’s important not to cut calories too too radically in the beginning especially with the ketogenic diet because it’s easy to do because it does have a satiating effect and helps you control your appetite to the point where your appetite not controlling you your cravings are not controlling you so it kind of makes dieting a lot easier and you you lose weight fast because by suppressing insulin insulin plays a big role in sodium reabsorption in the kidney so you tend to excrete a lot some sodium in the beginning and with sodium water comes with that and with some glycogen too you lose some glycogen in your liver primarily you lose some glycogen in your muscles and you might lose a little bit of that fullness in the beginning after about 4 to 6 weeks especially if you’re getting into calories and the fats that fullness will come back and you’ll be surprised that it’s easier to maintain so I think when people start the ketogenic diet you know it’s it’s really important to supplement with minerals make sure you’re getting adequate amounts of sodium magnesium because you’re going to be losing these things faster and to actually not calorie restrict to maybe if you do so just do it in a very moderate way because your appetite will be suppressed so you can it kind of makes calorie restriction feasible for those people who found it very difficult in the beginning but you don’t want to you know turn down your metabolism too much you want to kind of keep the calories coming in you want to be more liberal with your protein then like a medical ketogenic diet and not ten percent more like 20 and even upwards a 30 percent and that’s going on a protein also has an appetite like a satiating effect appetite suppressing effect so so these are just like some of the general pointers I mean because carbohydrates make I noticed they make me hungry so like when I’m on the ketogenic diet like whatever so about a year ago I switch the key to do a lot of your well work help me get there help me make that decision you know and and it’s just I’m not like hungry like the same way I was when I calorie restricted what I had to put the cards so that’s what is what I say to all the guys oh the keto doesn’t matter it doesn’t help you can just eat whatever you you can eat whatever you want long as in a clear deficit but it’s like how do you feel you know that’s the feel way better I have more energy I’m not as hungry why do i what why am i less hungry you touched on a little bit on keto and and why do I have more energy on an Aikido when I do calorie straight rather than when I calorie restrict eating you know whatever yeah it depends kind of on your diet so if you have weight to lose fast like there’s no better way than the ketogenic diet you know if you have all the time in the world say you have like 16 weeks 20 weeks to prepare for whether it be competition or the beach or whatever and you give yourself a lot of time calorie restriction you know is using like an if it fits your macros approach or that you know as possible but the ketogenic diet will make it substantially easier for a number of reasons kind of some of the things that I hit on is that when you restrict calories your glucose availability to the brain will become a little bit less so your brain goes through what I call like a glucose withdrawal especially during periods of eating your body becomes more sensitive to the hormone insulin so and what I noticed is that when I did kind of a fish and rice sort of dieting phase going back like ten years ago before I knew about the ketogenic diet you know my glucose would spike up in about two hours later I would be cry like I would get two shakes is Darby right yeah my sympathetic nervous system would be activated and kind of feel unwell kind of uneasy and and you know this was this was pretty you know pronounced in me and then I didn’t jump immediately into a ketogenic diet but did more of a low carb and just kind of phased out and I didn’t feel I felt better but not as as good as I felt on the ketogenic diet when my body was making ketones so the ketones can largely replace glucose as a fuel for your brain once you’re adapted to it so what that means from a practical point of view is that when your brain is kind of senses that your glucose is low maybe you’re at least a little bit insulin and then you’re you know peripheral tissue sucked up glucose and decreased availability to the brain if your ketone levels are elevated in your blood then your brain senses you know has a number of different energy sensing mechanisms it senses that it’s okay and it doesn’t cause a stress response and it doesn’t alter you know in a negative way you know the hormonal regulation that your brain kind of regulates in a very fine-tuned way so ketones from a neuroscience and even an epileptologist point of view and there’s books written about this it keeps the brain in a state of homeostasis and I think that’s really important from a dieting scenario is that keeping your brain happy by elevating these ketone bodies which insures that it has sufficient and adequate fuel available is really important because when you do go on a calorie restricted you know carbohydrate-based dieting scenario your glucose is bouncing up and down and with that your psychology is going to be bouncing up and down and your your attitude your motivation your energy levels for mental tasks for the gym people adapt to it over time but you it’s much more there’s many benefits to a ketogenic diet where you don’t have to go through those those negative effects of dieting it helps attend you it doesn’t completely abolish it but it helps really attenuate that and a lot of people you know over time I really liked fatty foods fatty salty foods instead of sweet foods and your palate changes over time so when I started the ketogenic diet I initially I would crave through certain things that I would eat like pizza and ice cream and some and fruit too and I just don’t crave those things as much anymore I’ve had the same yeah I’ve had the same experience and a lot of my client have to have to you know like what every time I talk about the ketogenic diet you know there’s always some people maybe a lot of people that say yeah man I’m gonna die my cholesterol is gonna go up and I’m gonna go I’m gonna die and get a heart attack but like I was telling you before we got on and I first started to first I was unit fits your macros kind of diet and I got your results from an aesthetic point I was fretted yeah the muscles but I mean if we’re checkup and my cholesterol was like crazy high they wanted to put me on statins and then I decided to try I heard I had heard it up definitely that the kids didn’t diagnose helps lower cholesterol you know it didn’t make sense because you know you’re getting so much fat and some way and maybe a lot of essentially a lot of cholesterol depending on the fat sources it didn’t make sense but I say when I try it not I’ll just guess I’ll just hop on these meds but my cholesterol actually dropped a hundred points within the first month of trying to keep your jimick diet why did that happen and okay if our people who should people be scared of getting high cholesterol and heart attacks from doing to do technically that’s one of the main points people are scared yeah do you know it like a breakdown is that you’re I mean I’m assuming that your total cholesterol do you know what your LDL and your HDL cholesterol where it was and your triglycerides so that’s I would kind of be interesting everyone has you know I see certain trends with the ketogenic diet but you know some people are unique metabolic entities and have pretty dramatic responses yeah remember my triglycerides but I argue my HDL my total cholesterol is like almost 300 right now and my HDL was only 10 Wow yeah and then but when I don’t remember exact exact numbers after you die but I know they got a two point on my doctor was like wow it was straight yeah cool yeah yeah what was that what’s that about why did eating these fats actually improve my cholesterol levels yeah so cholesterol is a pretty controversial topic in many ways I think I step back a little bit I think the everything that is a good reflection of your overall metabolic health is the level of inflammation like things like CRP but we can talk about that later but your triglyceride levels so the levels of fat in your blood are typically elevated in people and I see this all the time like hundreds of people’s any blood work you know that follow ketogenic diets you know before and after and on a carbohydrate based diet especially if their surplus calories coming in their triglycerides are all and you know through the roof like four hundred so that’s that’s fat floating around in your blood these fats can become oxidized as they can they can do they can damage your blood vessels they can do bad things if they’re you know floating around in your blood at high levels and if you take an animal and and feed it a high-fat diet that’s not carbohydrate restricted you know it’s like thirty percent fat or 30 percent carbohydrates and high fat – and you take the blood out and then you centrifuge it and just look at just the the liquid portion of the blood it looks like milk it looks cloudy and that’s that’s fat in your blood so if you’re giving your body carbohydrates they your body will preferentially you know use the carbohydrates over fats and it will spare the fats essentially so so your triglycerides go up pretty pretty high when you switch to a low carb or a ketogenic diet you’re literally changing the fuel system in your body to the point where suppressing the hormone insulin and it’s facilitating the uptake of fats it’s pulling fats out of your blood and your muscle and other tissues are using the fats for energy so triglycerides paradoxically go down with a high fat ketogenic diet because it’s stimulating from a hormonal metabolic physiological perspective it’s stimulating the uptake and utilization of those fats for energy so it essentially clears those fats from your blood especially if it’s if it’s calorie restricted and even if it’s not we typically see the fats go down pretty remar if you’re if you’re following carbohydrate based diet and you calorie restrict you know you typically see triglycerides go down but a lot of people just you know find it hard to do that so paradoxically blood fats go down significantly when you’re eating high fat which is it makes sense even doctors really don’t understand this physiologist kind of do or people who study the ketogenic diet do because they see it in the bloodwork all the time so when it comes to cholesterol my cholesterol actually went up when I did the classical ketogenic that I a 90% fat right and I follow that for a while I mean it went up to the point where my LDL cholesterol was almost 300 yeah and then my HDL started creeping up from about 56 or 60 now it’s up to like 80 close to 90 so HDL is could be a beneficial form of lipoprotein cholesterol and my LDL went up significantly with the classical ketogenic diet and then when I switched to more of a modified Atkins or modified ketogenic diet those numbers gradually went down and then I switched out a lot of the dairy fat I was eating a lot of heavy cream and butter for coconut cream coconut oil a lot of avocados nut butters things like that macadamia nut butter and and in my HDL or my LDL cholesterol and my LDL particle number which is also really important but that involves in NMR it involves like inexpensive blood tests and I did a number of these things and basically showed that with a modified ketogenic diet all my numbers pretty much went in there in the right direction my triglycerides were very high on a carbohydrate based diet they came down a little bit with a classical ketogenic diet down into the reference range and then with a modified ketogenic diet all my biomarkers including my cholesterol my LD cholesterol went up my LDL came down and and my my c-reactive protein was almost like not even detectable so and that’s a marker of inflammation and that’s probably your triglycerides in your the inflammatory state of your body is probably the two most important blood biomarkers that you can look at another thing of course is like things like your blood pressure and your heart rate and you know heart rate variability what you’re looking at now for different things so these things generally improve over time and it’s hard to determine if these improvements are simply because we’re moderating calories and we’re running a mild calorie deficit from a diet that satiates us I think it corrects a lot of the metabolic issues that we have the insulin resistance the resistance that may be things like leptin and ghrelin and other hormones I think it corrects a lot of that and it doesn’t have to be the K jenk diet all the time so you can add intermittent periods you can do a couple months at the ketogenic diet in a dieting phase and then transition out to not necessarily a high carb diet but maybe a low glycemic index diet where you know you titrate the carbohydrates back in from you know fifty to a hundred to two hundred and fifty and a lot of bigger guys like yourself I mean can basically get a lot of the benefits of low carb just staying at you know 200 to 250 grams of fibrous carbohydrates day challenge things like vegetables and and low glycemic like the Zone diet or a minutes rainey there some like that yeah yeah and still keeping fats proportionately high relative to probably what you were doing in the past I was you know going back like 20 years ago you know and I was in my mid-20s I would you know never eat an egg yolk almost a night honey I’ll have like an egg yolk omelet like I’ll give the whites to my puppies or the dogs you know because they need extra protein they’re growing and I’ll cook up the the yolks you know and make an omelet out of the yolks which it tastes better anyway right yeah way better you know it’s like funny funny you mention that like when you say that um it’s hard to tell if it cholesterol problems because of just calories when my cholesterol I’ll still that I’m tortured I’m about 200 pound well I’m cutting right now I’m in the middle of a cut for show like 195 right now yeah no but when I was doing I was about to go five to fit to tint and somewhere around there but I was getting by thousand calories a day like measuring it Wow Tito calorie you know what you would call the the mod the modified Kido you know 70s 70% maybe 17 18 percent fat um and in in 20 did about 20 sometimes 10 percent protein but my cholesterol still went down it with 5000 calories and what I noticed is I didn’t put on as much fat as I would have when I when I normally go up that I like I was able to stay pretty pretty lean are they put on senator but it wasn’t as much is that because the insulin was still low yeah and it might be perceived to that once you if you’re on a carbohydrate based diet and you’re getting surplus calories you have more of an insulin response to the meals and that insulin will cause kind of a reuptake of sodium and you would retain more water a little bit from the glycogen but you’re just you’re just retaining water from the sodium especially if you’re coming out of a ketogenic diet or or from low carb but yeah so what you just mentioned is pretty pretty common to me there’s a guy in the UK Mike dancer who is an epilepsy patient and drugs didn’t work for him so he used the ketogenic diet to control his epilepsy but he also found really dramatic body composition alterations and and really and started competing in bodybuilding after you know he was severe epilepsy you know which was completely unmanaged with drugs did the ketogenic diet had remarkable benefits in the gym and his body composition and then can kind of step on stage you know and he’s completely a drug-free bodybuilder tall guy – is like 63 so we can look up Mike dancer actually he was on bodybuilding.com they did a thing on him oh yeah from you know and talked about his story from battling you know severe seizures to embracing the ketogenic diet he did a modified Atkins diet and the effects that it had on managing its epilepsy and his body composition changes to it I was just I was kind of thrown out there that his fat consumption was something like 300 to even upwards of 400 grand a day of fat and maybe like your scenario – he was just burning through it like he was able to bulk like add muscle on that but also if he you know it’s it’s easy to decrease your calories when you’re consuming that much fat per day so he just kind of goes down from 350 grams of fat a day to 250 grams of fat a day and since your body is adapted to burning fat it’s gonna pull quickly pull fat from your out of post doors ah you’re already yeah your body’s fat adapted and you’re feeding it tons of fat so it’s it’s accustomed to using that energy the fatty acids as a fuel source so simply you know titrating the fat back down that’s going to start liberating a lot of fat from adipose storage and you’ll start seeing some pretty dramatic fat loss effect that’s been my experience because I’m talking cutting for an event and I have my calories and exactly yeah I did exactly like on weigh-in stuff exactly 2500 calories and yeah first of all hold it did doing that on just you know regular diet just if it fits your macros what it would feel awful to me you know of it I feel fine on keto I have more energy and I know I know you did a study I wouldn’t even tell us about that and where you took some fat fat it you did some keto athletes you know guys have been trained in well trained athletes and some other guys who were well trained they let them on a Western diet they have other guys on on a amount of Aikido you know 70% 75% fat what were the results because because it gold this goes against everything that I’ve learned a participant that was all calories and calories out but now I’m seeing that macros and hormones play a big role can you tell them about that that study a little bit yeah sure that was a ketogenic diet but a modified form of it with more liberal protein anywhere between 20 to 30 about 25% protein and the subjects were all trained it fairly in regards to they could you know squat and bench press X amount of their body weight so they fit into you know a situation where they’ve been training a couple years and it’s kind of typically hard to get a really robust effects you know in guys that have trained this way yeah so we had a group that was eating a standard Western diet kind of approach and then guys that were on this modified Atkins modified ketogenic diet so what we demonstrated it was that you can gain muscle on a ketogenic diet so that’s what we wanted to so we kept the calories coming in and we encourage them to use things like medium chain triglyceride fats what we did which a lot of studies maybe in the past did not do which measured blood ketone levels and the average ketone level you had to have elevated ketone levels to be in the study otherwise you were taken out of the study because it showed that you were you know not necessary probably not adhering to the diet or just couldn’t get into a state of ketosis so the the Western diet group and the ketogenic diet group gained muscle okay only significant amount you know two to three kilograms of muscle like over time or which was pretty significant the the main effect so it demonstrated that you can gain muscle and strength on a ketogenic diet but it also demonstrated that if you had greater fat loss on the ketogenic diet than in the Western diet hmm so so the body composition changes where the accusing diet did not gain more muscle but they were able to reduce their body fat to a greater degree percentage than the Western diet group and they were able to increase their strength proportional to the Western diet so it answered this question that I often get a lie that can you gain muscle and hang on a ketogenic diet and you can if the training protocol is set up correctly and you have the guys really coming in there and training hard and doing them you know the major compound movements and and and adhering to a ketogenic diet that’s knots if not significantly calorie restricted so a lot of the situation is usually such in the fitness and when people go on a ketogenic diet they restrict their calories so they’re jumping into a state of ketosis and significantly restricting calories at the same time and you’re probably going to start breaking down and liberating a lot of muscle like gluconeogenic amino acids that are in you know your protein stores are really your skeletal muscle so you’re gonna you know probably break down protein initially because your body goes through the initial stress of right of ketosis it’s a stress to your body so what I say to tell people to do is like transition into a ketogenic diet but stay you caloric so maintain the same amount of calories transition to a ketogenic diet hold that for a period of time get your body adapted and feeling good and then start titrating the calories back down as things might get up once or twice a week to keep your metabolism to prevent it from decreasing over time what I what worked good for me was you know if I had two heavy workouts during a week like if it legs are back and then I would add not a cheat day but a refeed day where I would just eat more of the same foods and I would increase my calories 500 to sometimes a thousand on those days that I did you know heavy workouts and that those periodic spikes and calories every you know a couple days can help keep your metabolism revved up oh so you do it every couple days yeah I was thinking maybe like every every once once a week or every two weeks but you think every but nothing extreme it’s like 500 extra calories on a Wednesday because you did legs that day back that day so and those exercises typically put you at more of a calorie deficit though it’s almost like you know you’re not you’re getting extra calories in but you’re also burning more but yeah putting calories into your system because you’ve utilized more yeah I do I really do start the ketogenic diet they should start it like you said starting maintenance you know yeah now adaptive ketosis and you have to adapt to caloric restriction and it is sometimes too difficult sometimes wanted that they want to do Keith they want to start out of nowhere they’ve been even crazy from for a year years yeah I’m gonna start to tell us this caloric restriction an e intermittent fast I’m like whoa that’s three different things that you have to adjust at once you know I think like I had to stop intermittent fasting for a while because I was doing a 16 hour fast for years you know I know great results but when I started taquito I had to stop fast and I just wanted to get adjusted in it and I was able to incorporate that in I think yeah what you do what you start to feel good in that will mitigate a lot of the key eluded everyone’s scared of are there any other ways to not get the flu I think exhaustion is ketones too are using foods that can promote your body to make more ketones like coconut oil medium chain triglycerides MCT oil I use like an MC tea powder that you know I’ll put my coffee and things like that and that bumps up your ketone levels and sends ketones to your brain so you feel better you know one person emailed me it’s like they did what you just said they did a shotgun approach so they went from you know a standard like high carb diet to a calorie-restricted ketogenic diet and a more aggressive training protocol with like two or three sessions of high interval or high intensity interval training yeah yeah add variables you know very slowly and even something like high-intensity interval training which is really going to kind of suck up your glycogen to add like one session a week and then as you’re working toward your goal this was like this person had like 12 to 14 weeks to prepare for a contest to just add sessions in you know hold that one session a week for two weeks and then add two sessions and then maybe work up you know two or three sessions per week maximum but don’t jump into a calorie restricted ketogenic diet scenario with three sessions of high-intensity interval training so this is this is where it takes you know they did people need to be talking to a sensible coach a lot of coaches maybe even advocate these approaches now anyway you cannot jump it right into it yeah I mean I understand like you get enthusiastic yeah it’s too much you know you know what else I’ve notices salt actually what a lot of people like getting more sodium actually helps mitigate a lot of these keto systems have you noticed that as well is that the case yeah absolutely so salting your food if you’re gonna connect diet I probably eat more vegetables on academic diet now than I did on a high carb diet which was like most pasta breads and potatoes and stuff so for your salad for example you know liberally put on the salt literally if you know I have broccoli last night I put you know quite a bit of salt on it and and the foods that you eat and get fluids get so one of the side effects of the Kijang diet that comes up in the literature is kidney stones and kids that follow the diet for epilepsy probably the most serious side effect is would be kidney stones but they but when you add potassium in a supplement if you give these kids potassium citrate and then study them over a decade there’s no higher incidence of kidney stones and if you keep them adequately hydrated too but just simply adding some magnesium or some potassium which can offset some of the the acidosis that you get initially especially with this really restrictive Kijang diet so I encourage people to take a mineral supplement I use potassium supplement that’s actually part of a product that I use so different like ketone products that I use a ketogenic Prime is one I use a couple others and they have you know a pretty significant amount of like this has one thousand twenty milligrams potassium so instead of and it has you know three hundred and ten milligrams of magnesium so instead of having to buy the supplements the ketone some of the ketone products on the market actually because they’re combined with the ketone there they’re giving a lot of the mineral too so and you tend to feel better so not only are you giving your body ketones which helps you transition into that state of ketosis without feeling the keto flu but you’re also delivering a lot of minerals at the same time which may be depleted when you start to keep diet so so that’s kind of the benefits of these ketone supplements they make it really easy for people to to start the ketogenic diet and I like to use it sometimes during intermittent fasting like you know I’m still considered fasting if you take those if you taking some of the stuff are you doing super fast well I call it a modified intermittent fasting okay yeah if I was taking you know a packet of this but what I do I split is I’ll take half a packet I’ll fast like I’ll do a 20-hour fast and maybe 4 hours of eating when I get home from like 10 p.m. to 6 to 10 p.m. or something like that lieutenant during yeah that’s good it’s kind of intense but during the day it’s a lot less intense if I just take a packet you know of this and it has some other things in it you know like a acetyl l-carnitine and alpha GPC like some things that kind of I would want to take anyway so it eliminates some of the supplements that I kind of was on my shelf anyway and I definitely feel the boost from it and I feel the energy from it and it makes it it makes intermittent fasting a lot more enjoyable for me because I like the kind of the feeling of drinking something that kind of tastes good and it give my body of there and if you were to look at my blood it would it would actually look that I’m more it would you it would you’d have the perception that I’m actually more in a fasted state than I would otherwise would be if I didn’t take the ketone supplement and what I mean by that is that my glucose levels drop a little bit when I take these supplements and my ketone levels go up a little bit so it’s almost facilitating or augmenting some of these biomarkers that are reflective or indicative of being in a fasted state we know that we gain a lot of benefits from fasting by you know reducing glucose and probably more importantly elevating ketones our colleagues that Yale University dr. deep Dixit showed that a lot of the benefits of intermittent fasting were from beta hydroxy butyrate right so when you’re in a bantha state you start producing ketones yes yeah so beta hydroxy butyrate is elevated we know that has an anti-inflammatory taury effect it impacts gene expression and has you know a lot of beneficial effects and it’s further lower in glucose so it’s actually training our brains in our body to get to function and be optimized in a low glucose state a mild hypoglycemic stage and by keeping glucose low that’s even facilitating more fat-burning right and you know we I’m looking at the effect of you know consuming large amounts of exogenous in ketones on insulin so the tests that I’m doing right now is actually a half a dose of a ketone supplement does not produce an INT a rise in insulin but I think if I take two of these at one time it’s going to elevate insulin and that has been a question probably that I get more than anything else do these ketone supplements elevate insulin and I’ll tell you that a half a packet doesn’t so now I’m doing some blood work to see like how much does ketones do I have to consume to where I’m bumping up the insulin which may be shutting off fat burning yes I’m curious about that question from a fat-burning perspective body comes like if I just want to burn fat if I take exhaustion is ketones am i earning less because in my mind ketones are energy and if I’m getting more energy than my body’s not using my own fat as energy that’s my hypothesis am I right or wrong or what’s your take so you’re putting energy into the system whenever you put energy into a system right you are typically going to reduce the amount of energy that you’re pulling from your stores you know whether that be glycogen or fatty acids from adipose so in theory you could be if you consume a lot of it but I think you have to view it from a kind of a more complicated perspective we know that ketones can enhance insulin sensitivity and enhance mitochondrial function and and many other things that could you know when done over time and even augment the fat burning capacity of your body so I think kind of what’s important is that you know it’s it’s there’s a qualitative and a quantitative kind of thing to discuss here but I think if you consume ketone supplements in small amounts and a lot of times these packets have a lot more than you need in it I can kind of think they’re over dosed to get your ketones above like if you consume just small amounts of it your body especially in it when you’re in a dieting state your body’s so sensitive to what you give it yeah right so I know immediately when I consume half of a serving of a ketone supplement I feel the energy and I can kind of focus and I get two or three to four hours of really intense work done and then I’ll consume the other half of the packet or dose and still continue that and by virtue of blood work that I’ve done looking at insulin looking at blood ketones looking at other we do a whole metabolic profile kit there’s no indication that I’m decreasing fat burning from it significantly in any regard especially if you maybe combine it with some stimulants like this one has like green tea or some caffeine and you hit like an expresso around our time so there may be some synergy to of combining so what we’re looking at now and some publications come out if you combine ketones with caffeine the caffeine can mobilize more fat from adipose and that fat goes to your liver and converts it to ketones so what we see is that you can actually further elevate ketone levels when you give a dose of the stimulant like caffeine and of course you know you want to be moderate I don’t caffeine should not be consumed more than Mayo 500 milligrams per day something like that but you don’t need a lot like 600 milligrams a day is actually used in some of the studies that show an optimal you know physiological response so so you could do that in and I you know studies come out one just came out with with coffee and was saying the optimal dose is like six strong cups a day for Alzheimer’s and and things like that and there’s a researcher here a very esteemed researcher that has done a lot of work on coffee caffeinated coffee and Alzheimer’s and showed some pretty significant results with that so and I think of coffee as a health food I mean yeah you know the color of coffee that’s all you know that’s a a wide spectrum of antioxidant compounds so you’re probably getting more antioxidants and things from coffee than we are from our diet a lot yeah it’s even beneficial for your liver too a lot of people are thinking well if you’re giving your liver all these you know caffeine and stimulants and things like that the compounds in coffee are really like beneficial for your liver I mean there’s studies done showing you know better liver health and better you know less liver cancer you know things like that when you’re eating when you’re drinking coffee so there’s a lot of benefits but there’s a dose-response and in some people my 23andme data my genetic data shows I’m a very fast metabolizer of caffeine so I can kind of you know drink four or five even up to six cups a day and mine okay so immediately can I just switching gears a little bit oh it’s the ketogenic diet gonna give me cancer just what everyone keeps telling me that millions of comments people making 45 minute YouTube videos about me saying that I’m telling her I’m recommending the keto diet and everyone’s going to get cancer is that true doctor no well I would like to see the data on that actually so I mean it’s really common sense and it’s basic metabolic physiology so there’s a lot of armchair scientists out there but actually they don’t do cancer research they don’t do research on the ketogenic diet and actually do cancer research you actually yeah there’s like tours in the other room that you’re studying right you know yeah we have I mean I have you know two you know presidential fellows I have a future Marshall scholar you know working on they cancer probably like the students that I have are like the top 1% of the students working on these projects there’s a little bit of let me take a step back so any diet that really facilitates you know calorie restriction and improvement of metabolic biomarkers it’s going to simply by virtue of suppressing insulin signaling and igf-1 is going if you have cancer that cancer is going to grow far less I mean we know that tumor growth and proliferation is driven to a large extent about 80 probably 90% of tumors are driven through glycolytic pathways that are augmented and enhanced through glucose uptake also glutamine can be used as fuel and it’s driven in to a large part by insulin igf-1 signaling so we know the ketogenic diet you actually make key to ketones by virtue of suppressing insulin signaling so it’s kind of kind of a no-brainer that it would work to at the very least slow cancer growth so it’s taking the foot off the gas pedal essentially cancer growth so there’s some debate out there whether certain types of cancer cells can use ketones as an energy source so I would say that may be possible I didn’t seem like really convincing data that tumors grow by using ketones as an energy source I think maybe some of the growth the biomass of the tumor may incorporate ketones into lipids as they grow but that would be such a small percentage relative to incorporation of glucose or incorporation of things like alanine and glutamine and things like that there’s a lot of nuances that that a lot of people I just don’t understand yeah yeah but what we do understand when you do a meta-analysis of the all the animal data you go on pubmed and look at all the animal data which we’ve done this and all the human you know clinical trials and it’s only pilot trials at this point we have a we’ve submitted a proposal for a very large you know study to be done on brain tumors you know further for the NIH and hopefully that’s being reviewed now and the NIH in the end the National Cancer Institute is actually becoming more interested in funding the ketogenic diet as a therapy really the Cancer Institute is is interested in funding the kitchen guys they’re absolutely so that’s why our lab partnered with the Moffitt Cancer Institute to write a National Cancer Institute grant which in ro1 grant or a po1 grant and these are the biggest grants you know NIH and NCI offer and they did it because they are looking to utilize the ketogenic diet specifically not as a stand-alone approach to cancer but as an adjuvant to the standard of care so this idea of taking the foot off the gas pedal of cancer growth right so you we cancer and then you also can decrease the side effects of some of the chemo and radiation so you get a person into a state of nutritional ketosis you elevate ketone levels to small to moderate degree and most importantly suppress insulin and insulin signaling and lower glucose right no glucose spikes and insulin spikes and in that state that makes a large majority of cancer cells vulnerable to other modalities like radiation and chemo it will sensitize that so it causes and certain drugs do this too and we’re studying various drugs like metformin and dichloro acetate and 2dg which is like glucose but it the cells can’t use it these things cause an energetic crisis in the cancer cells right like the ketogenic diet limits fuel supply and growth factor signaling to the cancer cells so it promotes a mild a mild energetic crisis that makes it vulnerable to things that can you know kill the cancer cells through an oxidative stress mechanism so it actually if you decrease energy to cancer cells they have an endogenous antioxidant pathway that requires a lot of energy so it reduces the cell’s ability to defend itself and then you kind of come in here or introduce into the patient various modalities like chemotherapy drugs or at a lower dose or even immune based drugs and even radiation you can use it as a lower dose and it has you know a stronger effect so that’s the idea so this has been you know some proof of concept studies have been done my colleague at Adrian Czech at Barrow Neurological Institute and a number of colleagues have done studies showing you know ver a ver aia t of animal models to show that the ketogenic diet is going to be effective as a standalone for really advanced cancers and kind of extend animal life but I think more importantly at this point we want to get it into clinical trials as an adjuvant so something that can you know enhance the standard of care we know the standard of care therapies don’t work for things like brain tumors glioblastoma they offer minimal effect advanced metastatic cancer it offers a little or no effect so it creates a scenario where where the standard of care doesn’t work but maybe if we use an adjutant we can improve the efficacy of the standard of care you know for these super aggressive fast-growing tumors and the cage egg diet you know it’s just one small piece of a bigger thing that we’re looking at so we’re looking at you know not just the ketogenic diet as like this thing in a box but you know dozens of variations of the ketogenic diet and different types of fats and different types of probiotic fiber which could enhance the gut microbiome and anti-inflammatory fats and different types of proteins and and then ketone supplements too can be incorporated into the ketogenic diet to further elevate ketones and lower blood glucose which we know you know can have a significant impact on the cancer so we’re approaching it from that way and then looking at a whole toolbox of drugs and a whole toolbox of other compounds that will work with the diet to create like a more comprehensive approach that’s less toxic but that can also work with various cytotoxic chemotherapy and radiation protocols that are already out there so from our perspective it’s really important just to get it in the clinic first and if you look at you know clinical trials.gov when I got into this there was no ketogenic diet that were registered you know ketogenic diet trials online but now you see a dozen or more ketogenic diet clinical trials that are registered clinical trials that are being conducted the same with metformin that’s a drug that we study I don’t think there was any studies going on you know ten years ago with metformin cancer and now there’s something like a hundred and eighty you know or more clinical trials Uzziah neared this well I didn’t pie no I didn’t pioneer it like other people were studying this but we studied it in our model and now we’re moving to studying in a variety of different models to find out what types of cancer you know does this work best for mmm so we tend to focus on cancers that are highly resistant to the standard of care you know different types of brain tumor there’s a metastatic cancer whereas you know other cancers like blood cancers leukemia or lymphoma are highly responsive to existing you know standard of care to chemo so you would be crazy not to do the standard care in that that way but also we would like to look at enhancing the standard of care for those types of cancers because I’ve had people with multiple myelomas two leukemias two testicular cancer used the ketogenic diet and it they had no side effects when they went through their chemo they really felt they did the ketogenic diet some of them fasted you know going up to getting their chemo infusions and they had a dramatic response and then you know no side-effects on top of that which is uncharacteristic necessary but we think we think you know there’s application there to this um could now from my understanding please you’re wrong because you actually are a cancer researcher but for the most part cancer sales can’t live off glucose and I’m saying they live off Google’s they can’t live off ketones and that’s what is that one of the reasons why cancer cells are more susceptible to treatment when you’re in a ketogenic state is this that was is that what you were saying or am i driving wrong I think that the cells that we study I got interested I saw the first paper I saw in this was dr. Skinner’s group at University of Florida where they looked at neuroblastoma cells and the the neuroblastoma cells could not survive in the presence of ketones if you subtracted glucose from the media whereas other cells did so I found that interesting and the more I studied it we were studying a cell type a u-87 glioblastoma so I think comes from like a forty four-year-old you know glioblastoma patient and these are some of the first cells I worked with back in 2005 I believe and I found that just simply adding ketones to the Culture Media even in the presence of glucose reduce their proliferation and also increase the amount of dead cells that I saw so this motivated me to to figure out why this was happening and I contacted people like Thomas Seyfried from Boston College I contacted a whole list of people and discussed you know why this was happening there are various enzymes that that tumors have one is succinylcholine space which is either absent or deficient in the large majority of cancer cells and the absence of that enzyme prevents the cancer cell from utilizing glucose as an energy source or from utilizing ketones rather I’m sorry not as an energy source and till you preferentially use glucose and hyperactivated glycolytic pathways which there’s a greater you know activity and amount of things like hexokinase and hexa kinase 2 which is is an enzyme that allows the cancer cells to use glucose in at rates that are up to 200 times higher than normal cells so so the the cancer cell a normal cell when it transitions into a cancer cell part of that transition and the oncogenic activate the activation of these cancer genes is to to increase the sugar pathways the glycolytic pathways and that does a number of things it allows the cell to survive and in a low oxygen a hypoxic environment and it also directs various energy intermediates into BIOS and biosynthetic pathways for the expanding biomass of the the tumor and as the tumor grows the blood vessels can’t supply enough oxygen to it so it becomes hypoxic it becomes even lower in oxygen as the tumor grows and this these glycolytic pathways which we call in upregulation as the Warburg effect allows that tumor it’s it’s an advantage it allows that tumor to survive and low oxygen and to expand the growing biomass and to to allow proliferation under conditions that would otherwise not happen right and so if you take the more aggressive these cancer cells are the less capacity they typically have to use ketones as an energy source so there’s some indication that some of the ketone molecules can be used into the biosynthetic pathways but far less than things like amino acids so they’re basically marginalized in a way and using these ketones as an energy source so we we studied a variety of different cell lines from u87 to these vmm 3 cell lines to c6 and other different cancer cell lines now we’re going to study you know lung and pancreatic and breast cancer cell lines to to determine specifically what types of cancer cells are most sensitive to you know or have the ability to use ketones as an energy source that’s one question our most sensitive to glucose and insulin suppression right so which energetic crisis that makes them vulnerable to the many other modalities we’re working on so there’s a key drink diet is just like one piece of a puzzle that you know has 20 or 30 different components to it it tends to be the one that’s kind of discussed quite frequently or debated online and typically you know always look at the credentials of the people who are arguing with you like for one thing are they cancer researchers that have you know grants that are studying this do they have a lab do can you go on PubMed and find their publications because there’s many many nuances to to studying this so just some guy probably should take advice probably goes to the actual research yeah go to PubMed so if you if you do go to PubMed what you find is about anywhere from 70 about 80% of the studies show a positive effect of the ketogenic diet so these you know and 20% of the studies are the ones kind of that we’re focusing on so why why did the ketogenic diet not work maybe they were consuming surplus calories my colleague who is actually a major proponent of this diet for cancer research he published a study in a CT to a model of brain tumors his name is Thomas Seifert from Boston College heat showed that if you gave a ketogenic diet in the form of a supplement a food supplement called keto cow which is a ketogenic kind of shake that you can drink for kids yeah and you give it to the animals ad libitum and you implanted a tumor cells cancer cells into intracranial II into the the mice and then they ate the diet ad libitum so as freely as they like the tumors grew faster on this ketogenic diet that they that the particular ketogenic diet was sweetened so they ate probably eight surplus amount of calories and actually fueled the cancer growth so he’s actually published studies showing the ketogenic diet can actually cause tumors to grow faster but when you calorie-restricted that ketogenic diet which the ketogenic diet tends to you know work best when it’s calorie restricted he found a remarkable decrease and that the tumor growth relative even to a normal carbohydrate based diet that was calorie restricted so so you get this idea you know that if you are introducing excess calories into a system those energy substrates metabolites will find their way into the system and contribute to expanding biomass of the tumor through energetically you know driving the tumor or from anabolic Li increasing just a building block of that tumor so that’s why we actually study things that are not calorie restricted but we when we when we implement the ketogenic diet even in our rodent models and even if we use ketone supplements we find that they calorie restrict just like a perfect amount it almost corrects their over eating activities and they calorie restrict about to the point where their body weight comes down about 5 to 15 on average about 10 percent and that’s when you get a lot of these health benefits because if you calorie restrict too much it can impair the immune system and you know you don’t want to do it to a cancer patient or the lab rats and animals that we study so you you know there’s a lot of the benefits from the ketogenic diet some of the benefits are from calorie restricting restricting but even if you don’t restrict calories at least in our model systems maybe not all model systems if you if you don’t restrict calories you may have little or no impact on tumor growth and I think some of the studies that are published show that say you know the calorie the ketogenic diet does not you know have any effect on this tumor or can make this tumor grow faster which my colleague Tom Seifert shows that it can speed tumor growth in a brain cancer model that’s a pretty common model a standard model can actually increase tumor growth if the calories are not restricted so there’s a lot of nuances that you know if you’re if you don’t if you’re not in the lab if you’re not you know and not you know I’m at the level now where I’m not always in the lab a lot I’m like writing grants but I do pop in the lab and we have lab meetings and I just kind of you know and a lot of these issues kind of come out that you have all many different caveats to various model systems in vitro and in vivo in petri dish and in animal models that need to be understood to interpret the data because it’s easy to go on PubMed and cherry pick out a couple studies and say look you know in this model system the tumor cells grew faster but you know you really have to study that model system to understand there’s a lot of the nuances I could probably take our model systems and formulate some kind of ketogenic diet to make the tumors grow really fast and to kill the animal faster you know and I could probably do that with a ketogenic diet if I formulate it in the right way yeah some things so we like people would you’re gonna have water right like anything can you like you know deadly right so you got this what you’re saying is anything dislike if you do anything extreme and it could be bad right like you gotta like really look at like how administered yeah and I think it’s important to acknowledge that you know there’s lots of heartbeat out there showing that hyperglycemia which from excess calorie intake you know there’s a greater percentage of people getting cancer if they don’t have their type 2 diabetes under control and so that’s basically driving you know we do quite a bit of work we’ve done work with metformin and longtime users of metformin are like 60% less likely to get pancreatic cancer so you’re targeting you know some of the pathways that were actually hitting with the ketogenic diet so it mimics some of those pathways but we don’t what we really need to do there’s a lot of unanswered questions still the balance of the data you know very very conservatively seventy percent of the data is positive it’s more like about eighty percent I think if you do it analysis of the human animal studies and but we’re interested in understanding you know why some studies didn’t work and also analyzing the studies that did work and to make them work better and and also to understand what types of cancer cells this the ketogenic diet which is one component of many things that need to be integrated to understand and why certain types of cancers are more responsive to to low glucose and high ketones I mean the low glucose and you know you suppress the hormone insulin that’s that’s I mean all cancer researchers know the insulin pathways drive tumor growth in proliferation and the ketogenic diet by virtue of suppressing insulin signaling that’s how you make ketones so so you know it make sense that it’s slow yeah well that was that for the next I don’t know you can say that like legally but like do it would you it I’m gonna ketogenic diet would you believe that I’ll probably have less likely to get certain cancers for the majority of cancers I would say yes and I think and it’s not probably due to the things that you may you know traditionally think the reasons why it may not be due to suppression of insulin sync it has a lot to do with just a lower inflammatory state of your body and my inflammatory markers are running about half to a quarter of what they did when I was on a carbohydrate based diet that’s information yeah so it many of these inflammatory cytokines are what I would call you know uncle metabolites or and uncle molecules were they can activate various oncogenes so they actually damaged normal cells in a way and can act activate gene expression that can trigger the transition of a normal cell to a cancer cell we know this so decreasing inflammation managing and decreasing oxidative stress which is intimately linked to inflammation and keeping the body and what I call a metabolic you know enhancing metabolic health by reducing triglycerides decreasing glucose and glucose spikes and suppressing insulin signaling all these things I just mentioned are things that occur on a well-balanced you know well formulated ketogenic diet or even just carbohydrate restriction and these are all benefits that will have long-term consequences beneficial consequences to the person that follows up in anyways right not just none that you know just cancers like keeping inflammation low is that is that what your skin is so clear doc like I must clear it up like crazy yes is it because of the low inflammation yeah actually that’s a that’s a really good point I do like it super clear skin yeah I got this I got a little bit of sunburn actually but but I get a quite a bit of emails from people who have you know gotten less acne so some people get adult acne and they get less acne so actually I had acne when I was younger I actually took a drug accutane for a short amount of time I took like a half dose and it cleared up you know when your body I was like 18 or 19 going through like some hormonal things when Mom I my puberty kind of kicked in late and it made me think at the time I grew up an Italian family I was eating huge plates of pasta pancakes every morning things like that so it makes me think you know what would my body have done if I follow this low carb or ketogenic but I did have eczema so eczema is an inflammatory condition that makes your skin kind of dry and itchy to the point where I was on drugs you know as a little kid and growing up and and since I’ve been on the ketogenic diet I’ve had zero eczema so it completely went away and and eczema is an autoimmune like your body’s reacting to foreign molecules and in your your skin is your biggest organ and it’s kind of reflective of your overall health and and also your general immune system and things like that so yeah and you know I think it would have been good to do like a complete cytokine profile before and after like when I was having eczema but that it works remarkably well for a number of skin conditions yeah I mean I just noticed it in my clients like especially the younger guys you know new teens that is Cle if some people struggle with you know it is I heard their comments and then they start cutting carbs going on more poquito diet even if they don’t go all the way Kido right like it seems like that inflammation it seems like the skin just clears up you know yeah and I think it has to do a lot with growth factors like insulin igf-1 access and good thing because when were younger and we tend to be most prone to getting acne like our insulin sensitivity and igf-1 levels in various you know hormones are kind of off the charts right and I think the key jinked helps to moderate that and that’s why it works really well and I had an interview just the other day about polycystic ovary syndrome which is kind of a dysregulation of of sex hormones in women that can also contribute to to acne and Ana ketogenic diet is a legitimate you know pubmed searchable yeah therapy for PCOS polycystic ovary syndrome and it helps to normalize and moderate their their hormone levels yeah because this is all of me because I got you here like I have like so much stuff when I ask you why do I feel like I can concentrate better and I have like more energy that more you know more ketones I know that but like I feel like I’m more focused in this this is what a lot of the guys in the business world like I got friends who like I’m in New York I have friends on Wall Street who started doing this they didn’t care about it look they just want to focus right because if they can perform this much better that’s millions of dollars or like a lot of entrepreneurs you know Silicon Valley why these guys are on this how does this help with and actually like focusing in cognition how does the it’s funny you mention that because I get a disproportionate amount of Oh type people like uber uber you know successful business people even billionaire people that are following this diet and many of them are like they want a coach but I don’t really do that sort of I’ll give you a cut yeah yeah well I have actually just go to my website and I have really good consultants on there living there you know hundreds of clients so they’re really skilled at it Kito nutrition orgy guy and if you click on resources you know I’m building that list there’s about a dozen you know keto keto diet consultants on there so yeah without a doubt being in a state of nutritional ketosis makes you more kind of even keel and be able to focus more if you have attention deficit disorders like if you can’t focus you know continuously the kita I’ve gotten I’ve written I typically choose to write a lot of my grants and manuscripts and things like that in a state of deep ketosis because I just get a whole lot of work done and I don’t get hungry so a lot of times you know when you’re working you just get into that groove if you’re on a carbohydrate based diet you get into that groove where you’re really focusing and getting a lot of you know mental work done or work on a manuscript and then damn you get hungry and it’s like man I can’t concentrate and I’m stuck here when a kid ain’t diet like you can i’ve periods of time where i put in 8 to 10 – maybe even 12 hours of continuous work on a manuscript or a grant where i’ve just nailed it out and i was only able to do that and basically not stop because you know i was pretty deep into nutritional ketosis but i will use it for that purpose you know i’ll use it for like writing and things like that because what do you what do you keep the lobes have to be to get that kind of focus you know cuz i’ve been there too but like they’re in a level like i said i’m glad to get three you know yeah actually i feel best so what i did initially is instead of you know measuring Mikey what I did I would sense when I felt the best like when do I feel best when do I feel most lucid and then take take note when I ate last and what my glucose levels were and what my ketone levels were so instead of like measuring myself and then writing down how I felt I would assess how I felt first and when do I feel optimize and then I would take a metabolic snapshot at that period of time and then I can kind of reverse sort of do it and basically do ways to achieve that metabolic state where I had you know really good fuel flow to my brain and and you know my mood and everything and my energy was balanced and I think it has a lot to do from a standpoint of like the CEO where he needs to be kind of on on point all the time or from an academic point of view where I need to I need a block of four to five hours where I can’t get hungry where I just need to focus on getting this manuscript done because the deadlines you know the next day to be able to do the things even the day prior to set your body up so sometimes I’ll eat a little bit more the day before where I know okay man I got to sit down at my desk and basically put a sign on my door you know in a meeting or don’t bother me and just kind of work on this just get this nailed out this day but I find everybody’s a little bit different but I find that you know ketones and caffeine and I use caffeine in moderation like I get a nice buzz off about 50 to like a hundred milligrams where if I slam a big Starbucks coffee like in the middle of a thought process I’ll just start to get anxious and it has a negative effect on me so I use it and like small doses to give me and I try not to overuse it and then I don’t consume caffeine after like 2 p.m. or 3 p.m. or something like that because I think it disrupts my sleep if I drink no cup around or something like that so I’m very kind of measured and and kind of metered in my approach to using things and okay the most popular and most effective and the trophy’s as well right it is and I think it combines well with a lot of things and I think it combines particularly well with with key ketone so so like I said sometimes I’ll use some of the key you don’t supplements too and I will get my most productive runs of writing when I’m consuming small amounts of those things and my my to get back to your question my ketones typically run about one to two on the blood meter and that’s when I feel best and and sometimes it can get up to the three like this weekend actually it was like three point seven or something you know I was doing some work which was you know I didn’t even know it was that high but I actually got a lot of work done I have a bunch of deadlines you know and so it varies but I think most important is just being in a mild state of ketosis can moderate your can kind of sustain your mood and your energy levels and make you more lucid to the point where you can focus on the task at hand and get more done like this is actually a morning on me and my like a lot of my business partners you know I’ve owned this company in and that’s the main reason that I mean like we we like being ripped we like you know we you know cancer prevention and blood pressure all that’s cool but we can work because we’re like workaholics and this is this state like I really can’t explain it to you know any died to get you rip but you won’t get this feeling you know that were talking about from from of us though yeah and you know I was pretty anti ketogenic diet for a long time it just was like a radical approach to me I didn’t I didn’t really understand it and then you know my mic research path went down the path of studying seizures and that occur as a limitation the Navy SEAL diving and I was you know looking at drugs and they didn’t really seem like a feasible option so when I discovered that this diet I was like wow I could use because I studied nutrition as an undergrad I can kind of come full circle and apply nutrition to my neuroscience and you know background and actually and and get into studying nutrition as a metabolic based approach you know to managing these seizures so it became really exciting to me but prior to that I always felt like the ketogenic diet was the fastest way to get small yeah because you’re a big guy bigger than me like you you’re like 200 some pounds I’ve heard deadlift like 600 pounds or something like that yeah I mean that’s more of you know I still I like to lift heavy I did you know I lost I was on a project NASA’s NASA extreme environment Mission Operations where astronauts go down in the ocean and have to spend time you know and living in saturation and I got my bodyweight down for that and it was it was so easy to do on a huge Inc diet so and I’m not like you know for astronauts usually you want to kind of you know be a little bit lighter and body and I felt you know I could be better more from a utilitarian point of view it was better for me to get my body weight down so back I was June 27th when I came out of the NASA Nemo environment I weighed 207 which was the lowest you know I had ever been ever I think since like high school and then ever since to the end of June I’ve gained one pound per week you know since then and now I’m almost just about back to 220 and I did it you know just simply adding in ketogenic foods like adding in an extra egg you know this week okay next week I’m gonna add you know a little bit you know one more one can of sardines and things like that and I keep like little notes on that it’s not super controlled because I kind of know my body now like you do but it was very easy to gradually gain that weight back and just try to get in the gym a little bit more and do the heavy compound movements yeah but I find that and because bigger guys have a more they have to eat constantly I remember you know I was just continually shoveling food in my mouth all the time to me yeah yeah but now I find it so liberating like I don’t have to carry food around with me I can eat you know a little bit of steak and eggs in the morning or not even eat at all and not get hungry yeah and just make sure that I do get my calories in within you know window of a few meals that I ate now so I was literally used to eat about four to six meals a day and even if I was eating six meals a day I would have like two shakes in between it was even eight meal because I can’t imagine doing like how did I get stuff done back then yeah 42 for you so we come from like the older school a you know like do Phillips was my mentor you know yeah you know like guy I just stopped seven meals a day man you got to do it you know and then this is now you know intermittent fasting and now the ketogenic diet until he’s just like liberated like I can’t eat anywhere and like I can make it happen you know I don’t feel restricted people say it’s restricting I don’t feel restricted at all man like I don’t even have a taste like I don’t you said your family changes like I can’t even really see myself eating cake or anything and it’s like voluntary like I I’m not a slave to my cravings anymore yeah yeah you know my wife eats she does not eat the kids ain’t a showy ketogenic meals sometimes and she’s fine with it and I test a lot of key to junk foods and stuff and I see it and she notices it too I mean when she eats sugar like two or three hours later she’s hungry yes damn or she hits crashes right she crashes I mean and you know I can she’s like I’m hungry we need to pull over like that immediately but she likes you know she likes the taste of carbohydrates food she likes and I wouldn’t tell people to stop if they can reach their fitness goals and things like that but I would say get the ketogenic diet a chance if you’re curious about it it’s not going to do you any harm it’s not going to make tumor explosive tumor growth in your body like probably like all your health markers will probably go down with a probably improve right you know exactly yeah and at any time you’re improving you know biomarkers like lowering inflammation reducing you know insulin and you know improving your triglycerides which is probably one of the biggest things that comes out all these things are going to have major impacts on prevent related chronic diseases you know whether it be rheumatoid arthritis or Parkinson’s Alzheimer’s disease age related dementias inflammatory disorders things like that in cancer I think you’re gonna go a long way and for me you know you could do it in various approaches you can you can use an if it fits your macros approach and moderate your calories and be very controlled about it but you know with the ketogenic diet many people find inadvertently without even trying without you obsessed and preoccupied see I see a lot of people man there they are like obsessively preoccupied with counting calories and doing all this thing you’ll find that when you finally do the cue drink diet you and many people most people their appetite will match their energy needs right so if you’re bola Singh sugar or prosopis carbohydrates your appetite and many people as evidenced by our you know type-2 diabetes obesity epidemic many people will not Auto regulate their appetite to Mik to match their energy output so the ketogenic diet I think does that quite nicely that it controls your appetite satiates you and and puts various metabolic drivers and the neuro endocrine system and your whole inner row pharmacology of your brain I mean because that’s what I study it puts that into a position where you’re more able to easily effortlessly able to match your calorie intake to your body’s output so it you know it’s and that’s the benefit and it’s not for everybody but it’s a very powerful tool in the toolbox of diets that has profound effects and people like the effects because it’s very fast you know people like to get results fast results are really fast the results are thing a lot of the criticism I I hear in from the fitness community is it oh man you just have to it only works because of restricting calories now even if that works let’s just say that we’re true like most people like you say inadvertently restrictive cow diets are more full and and actually when carbs aren’t addictive sugar is addictive like we did like this studies to prove this alright so it it that’s not to me that’s not a drawback that’s a feature that’s not a flaw that’s a feature you know the fact that you you don’t want to eat enough eat more you know you’re here you automatically put yourself in a deficit or match your energy needs and and you’re um you’re just more full and feel better on a diet when you’re restricted and you have to weigh everything and count everything and it’s difficult to you know like um food labels are allowed to be 20% off right so it’s like counting calories they’re kind of difficult you know absolutely yeah and you know there is a debate whether there’s a quote-unquote metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet verse and I think that’s kind of silly because I mean from my perspective I mean maybe you’re like this to my energy you know needs of my body were so high when I was especially in my teens and early 20s it was such the biggest thing that I hated about you know powerlifting or strength training was that it had to force feed my body all the time I mean so now I don’t have to do that right because the ketogenic diet the food on your plate is much more energy dense so you can eat less food but it’s very indulgent food it’s food that I would otherwise try to limit or restrict because I would have to eat massive piles of rice and and other things and fish get my calorie need so the food I take my time you know my wife and I we have like a sit-down breakfast on the days I don’t intermittent fast and we always have kind of a sit-down dinner and kind of make you know and just kind of enjoy our food and eat it and and that’s I don’t count calories or anything anymore if I was going to get serious back into fitness or had some kind of thing to prepare for or had to lose weight eventually I want to do like maybe an Ironman or something like that so I’d have to probably bring my weight down I would probably start calculating just to make a science experiment but and I actually encourage people if people are really going to do the ketogenic diet they really do need to count their macros and at a kendama some people yeah it’s some condition maybe you could sit down you’re on a quote-unquote ketogenic diet and you sit down in front of the TV with a bag of macadamia nuts or cashews and then you can do a lot of damage right like it easily overshoot a thousand calories I know I can with certain types of foods too so that I really do emphasize that that people do and there’s some personality types it’s more of a psychological thing they physiological their body may be telling them that I’m satiated I’m full you don’t need it but psychologically they they don’t know in the stop you know it so that’s why so I am a big fan of if it fits your macros for ketogenic diet like you know to do that but to just to like experiment and to have that that’s just one tool in the tool but if you’ve tried other approaches and you’re using this approach but you feel hungry and cranky and you have brain fog I have it I have you know maybe a biased opinion that the Kunik diet may be a really good approach to you but I don’t I don’t sell it like that I just kind of present it as an option obviously I mean we’re studying it very specific kind of niche applications like CNS oxygen toxicity no one’s probably never ever heard of that but that’s like the major foundation of the research that I do you know cancer cachexia which is muscle wasting like preventing that inflammatory disorders various types of seizures anxiety behavioral neuroscience is kind of what we study but body composition we also study this so as it relates to the anti catabolic effect that ketones have a dieting situation so humans are able to fast for prolonged periods of time up to like 40 days we know and even longer so the biggest case is 382 days of fasting for a guy that was like 500 pounds if his body did not make ketones he would have quickly and down all the you know amino acids gluconeogenic amino acids in skeletal muscle and wasted away and died his heart would have it would have died so we so ketones are by virtue of their ability to sustain fuel supply to the brain they prevent protein from being broken down you know for amino acids so they are very anti catabolic or protein sparing so in a dieting situation I think you may have you know be at a really good benefit if you’re doing intermittent fasting to may be consumed something dajin ketones during that intermittent fasting phase because I think it has an anti catabolic effect perhaps branch chain amino acids to I think the jury’s still out on that but we do know just through evolutionary biology that ketones have a powerful protein sparing effect and that’s you know that’s why humans were able to if we did not you know if the state of fasting as it pertains to humans because they have a lot of adipose tissue relative to other species out there if they did not go into a state of ketosis the humans that didn’t didn’t go on to survive to be here now so if you know we are basically hardwired to fast periodically and the the people that survived in a very robust way they became more lucid and more kind of they actually functioned better because they were able to go forage for food and kill the animal in a fasted state and then propagate you know their their bloodlines essentially so this is eating eating you know three four meals a day continuously day in and day out is largely silencing a genetic program or a metabolic state that our bodies are hardwired and used to being in and I think so it’s important to bring that out and to put our bodies in that state periodically as a health preventative measure if I’m cutting right I’m just cutting like a weight like it like you know like but uh I got a competition or photo shoot because keto ketones are anti kind of bothered later is it am I likely to retain more muscle than our traditional diet or will it be yours doesn’t matter if you use a ketogenic diet with just without supplemental ketones yeah if I’m just maybe MCTS or something um am I likely to retain more muscle and/or or will will supplement it with ketones actually help me retain more muscle while I’m burning fat what’s the best way too much muscle when I’m dying I would say this based on what we know I I would say you could keep the same amount of muscle and insulin is also very anabolic and also anti catabolic right so as is ketones but you’re in two different kind of physiological states are what I would say is that you can retain the same amount of muscle and strength but get a greater degree of fat loss so overall your body composition alterations will be more favorable with a ketogenic diet by virtue of greater fat loss with the same amount of protein muscle sparing effects they say of course was like yeah yeah and that’s for controlling total calories so I think if you have two diets and you control for total calories I would I would argue that you are definitely burning more fat on a caged egg diet that the fat loss would be easier and that you know you’re going to be burning more fat because you’re giving your body fat as fuel too and I think that your results would would be better just by virtue of the diets going to be easier to follow but I think any if you control and a lot of people bring this up and rightly so if you control for calories you know I don’t know of any studies you know very good controlled studies that kind of compared the two as far as muscle verse fat I mean you really need like bigger studies where you nail down specifically very specifically how much you eat because a lot of people under report yeah you know if you’re not counting Mack very precisely uh I think I think that the results will probably be very very similar if you restrict calories to a certain degree and use high higher carb Western diet and a ketogenic diet the fat loss effects if you control for calories are going to be pretty similar and the muscle retention will be similar but it’s going to be easier with a ketogenic diet yes you have the benefit neurological benefit of ketones and anti-inflammatory benefit of ketones and you just feel better you have more energy you can focus in your Hill tomorrow but yeah let me ask was something that we need to study more ok what about this I started cut you up and I’m getting excited you know I feel like I don’t need as much sleep on the ketogenic diet and I don’t know if this is good or bad it’s just something that you’ve noticed I heard you talk about other pets and it is something you noticed is it good or bad good did not have much time for some unforgettable sleep or is my body just saying Amen like I woke up at 5:00 today I just my alarm was set for 6:30 I will go back lie in my body I just autumn my body’s like yeah it’s good it’s gone you know I just is well is that normal and is that good or bad because a lot of me and my my like other entrepreneurs parents who are basically all of us are doing Kido right and we’ve all go man we don’t use much sleep I’m like it’s a good thing or it is normal I think it’s normal it’s one of the things that I experienced early on when I started falling like that I started waking up earlier and earlier each day instead of waking up at 7 I started waking up at like 6:00 and then 5:30 and I would get up and get right to work and start working on things so what I find so sleep is something I’m really interested in studying and we did actually study it in a recent the NASA NEEMO mission and we collect a lot of data that we’re going through now what I find on the ketogenic diet is that I can sleep less about 6 to 6 and a half hours and my deep sleep is deeper and I think I get more REM sleep – and I feel the purpose of sleep let’s figure out okay the purpose of sleep is for your brain to basically recover or consolidate memories I mean there’s I did my PhD in a pulmonary critical care but it was also a sleep lab I did it among MDS where they studied sleep so we would frequently talk about you know kind of philosophically like what’s sleep for so I think the sleep is to regenerate brain energy metabolism and also to regenerate the neurotransmitters that our body are going to be used our body is going to use throughout the day you know and the central nervous system is going to use throughout the day when you’re in a state of ketosis the ketones being in a state of ketosis provides various precursors for neurotransmitters including to ox o glue to rate or alpha ketoglutarate alpha ketoglutarate becomes glutamate which then through glutamic acid decarboxylase becomes gaba and and other neurotransmitters are the ketogenic diet can provide precursors to these neurotransmitters to help replenish them during sleep and I think being fat adapted and keto adapted the it allows the brain to re-energize faster at nighttime so that these are theories that I’m throwing out some speculating it may actually help to divert glucose and ketones into pathways that can help produce neurotransmitters so it may actually have like a glucose sparing effect to some extent if you’re not using your muscles and things like that while you’re sleeping you could be directing various energy metabolites down pathways that can help replenish neurotransmitter stores so this is actually a big focus on the epilepsy and the seizure community because there’s higher levels of various things that help to balance brain neuropharmacology and there’s neuro scientists that are studying this but they’re studying this in the context of the neuro protective effects and the anti seizure effects so if the brain has more neurotransmitters like gaba for example your brain is less likely to go into a seizure so and we know that Q jank diet does this we just don’t know yet how it does it so these are some of the things that we’re studying in the lab right now but my theory is a you know when you’re following a ketogenic diet and sustaining nutritional ketosis by virtue of elevated ketone levels that you’re asleep requirements decrease on average about 30 to 60 minutes per night and that’s 30 to 60 extra minutes per day that has been useful for me because yeah yeah eight hours of sleep actually last night I only got five and a half hours of sleep but I feel fine you know at typically need a little bit more than that but you know I’ve functioned find all three what I have seen is that no matter what you know supplements you use or what state of ketosis if you chronically if I miss it takes about three nights of sleep deprivation where I sleep three hours maybe miss a night asleep on a red-eye because I can’t sleep on a plane and then don’t get in like I break down pretty fast so I’m actually really interested in kind of preventing or developing ways to quickly get your body you know to recover from sleep debt on planes for years I do a lot of trap yeah I couldn’t see more planes be years you got to get the neck pillows but get like the real expensive one like the most puzzling to find a nice look they’re like dinner they don’t yeah yeah get a I mess in like these noise-canceling headphones okay I’m still a static get like when those apps that place there you know it’s white noise and just like everything else it was the only time a bit like now I can I can sleep I had to go to Australia and I was like man I’m gonna be up this whole time you know and then I was able to sleep you know like all right cool and then I’ve been able to duplicate it maybe it won’t work but like it’s these three things the noise can say iPhones dime ass and the thing and I’m able to sleep on red-eyes now I gotta get the neck the neck things again but noise can’t yeah I bought like the expensive noise cancellation earphones but they’re not the ear buds and when I was sleeping under water in the Aquarius habitat or the NASA mission there’s like noise from pipes and everything like that it was told that I needed these but the white noise actually in that habitat quickly put me to sleep and I slept better than I’ve ever slept before but on a plane yeah my main thing is the neck so and I have a cheap one a cheap neck brace but it just didn’t work so I have to yeah maybe I’ll look on Amazon and just see you know which ones got I’ll see you when I use I’ve seen you and I used because one of my buddies he’s there like a professional public speaker so he’s always flying around so anyway this has been this is I have another question man um I’m sorry if I’m taking am I taking up – no no I love question all right a lot of people were making a big deal about ketogenic diet I guess there was a study somewhere would say it just it lowers testosterone is that true and is that if somebody should be concerned I I haven’t tested my testosterone on since I’ve been but I feel you know mother but the indicators if you will don’t seem to be fine if not elevated you know so in the study that we did with trained athletes or lifters hmm their testosterone went up 30% only 28 to 30 percent you know but it stayed within reference range so that could be you know going from like four or five hundred to you know six or six seven hundred or something like that I find that my testosterone has it’s never been above normal and it did go below normal but only when I fasted when I did extend it fasting so calorie restriction like I don’t advise you know right that’s like that’s not you know medium fast yeah yeah it was within normal range it was I use various like hormone kits so like I don’t know if you could see it is ERG labs hormone kits and I do blood and additions that and compare the two and I actually do a lot of testing on these things and what I find is that my testosterone is very sensitive to your calorie and right so if I’m at a calorie deficit even a mild calorie deficit it’s almost like I see my testosterone in parallel it will go down from five or six hundred right down to like three or four hundred if I’m holding like a 20% calorie deficit and then if I and it’s up to a certain point and right now I’m actually in the process of testing again I’ve been doing a mild surplus calories to gain one pound per week because I’m recovering from a period where I need it had to get my body weight down so and I did the last test I did was like four weeks into that and I saw about a 20% increase you know in testosterone but always within the reference so instead of like 500 it was like you know 625 or something like that so it’ll probably go up and be what I say think optimized for myself the ketogenic diet provides you know if you’re eating animal fats cholesterol dietary cholesterol which has very little if any impact on you know your body’s cholesterol you say just say it one more time said I’ve been trying to tell people this they don’t believe dietary cholesterol has little or no impact on your body’s cholesterol levels uh you know even actually that’s why you won’t find cholesterol on the back of nutritional information so the ABA and and USDA they felt that it was necessary to Dietary cholesterol had such a little or no impact that it actually should be taken off of food labels so that’s why I say well not find a food label now that has you know dietary cholesterol even listed on it most importantly so a lot of the cholesterol you know from your diet can be driven by saturated fat but but cholesterol I’m telling you it’s been demonized my colleague dr. David diamond gave a fantastic talk at I H MC an institute that I work which talked in depth discussion about the science how the science kind of demonized dietary cholesterol and even statins why statins are really in most cases not not a good way to go to bring down your cholesterol yes I was good Kito instead of yeah we lost it a second ago cholesterol how does the precursor yeah yep yep so you know it becomes a precursor for sex hormones and one of them you know testosterones a big one so keeping your body being restricting you know dietary cholesterol is a surefire way to decrease your testosterone yeah but I think more importantly just any kind of diet that calorie restricts you to a certain degree and it’s prolonged over time of course intermittent fasting is not going to do it if you meet your calorie needs you know day in day out but if you take someone who’s on a you caloric diet and calorie restrict them 50 percent of their calories for one week by the end of the week their testosterone is going to be lower so that’s that’s pretty sure thing and also if you over trained so you get a lot of guys if they follow ketogenic diet a lot of times they may be and they’re starting some kind of dieting phase so they’re they’re cutting calories and their output is higher so you could take guys and I see this all the time these endurance athletes and and even you know bodybuilders or Fitness athletes and they bump up their training for competition and their testosterone goes down but you know I there’s there’s a number of guys that I know that are elite level like natural completely drug-free bodybuilders or athletes or even military guys they’re not on any form of supplemental testosterone and there’s testosterone really low like almost like like two 200 sometimes a hundred but they are strong as an ox and they have you know they don’t have any like signs sometimes they get a little grumpy or things like that but I think their body training makes your body much much more sensitive to the hormones that we have it’s kind of like insulin right like if you train your body becomes much more insulin sensitive and I think the same thing applied to to two guys in testosterone sensitivity so they may just have an abundance of androgen receptors on the muscle membrane and or the Android androgen signaling pathways are so robust upon activation of the hormone to the receptor and these are some of the things I used to teach in the past I used to just teach the textbook stuff but would go back to some of the literature and see like wow you could really amplify this pathway ten times more you could have a decrease in androgen receptors but get you know from the from the effector to the pathway you could amplify it by this signaling pathway if it was up regulated in the cell and oh it’s interesting that training resistance training actually can increase the production of that particular signaling pathway independent of the androgens or even androgen receptor density on the skeletal muscle so I think you know it’s complicated but I think I think what’s important for guys to know is that strength training and recovery taking a sufficient amount of recovery and preventing overtraining although your body can adapt pretty well to overtraining can increase the sensitivity of your body to these hormones to testosterone so you could be running a low testosterone but still you know be maybe get a greater anabolic effect you know from the testosterone that you have and I remember you know getting on the forums were some guys was asking me questions like I’m not a hormonal guru and things like that but he sent me some information he was gonna start a steroid cycle or something and he was into intermittent fasting and he showed me some data and he asked me my opinion and I was like you know all I can do is I’ll read whatever information you send me and the information was pretty legit that if you do some mild calorie restriction and maybe intermittent fasting before introducing like an exogenous form of steroids testosterone your body will become much more receptive to it and more sensitized to it so you’ll make more gains but I kind of think of it from the perspective of the guy who’s just one to use his own testosterone naturally there’s different ways to do that and I think intermittent fasting and I do think that specific types of resistance training makes our body much more sensitive to talk to sound become absolutely and recovery so no matter you need to get a day sometimes two days a full recovery sleep sunshine you know relationships like it’s a whole balancing act and these things help to optimize restore your testosterone and optimize it for maximum effect [Music] multifactorial okay this may be personal that says when I’ve been I’m calorie restricted now like just because I’m getting ready for this event I’m doing my output is more probably doing lifting everyday and then maybe some hit cardio after that and then another session later they have just like walking for my hour 90 minutes and I’m really really trying to shred my ketone levels are lower than they you’d like I was like I’m barely in ketosis it’s like I’m like steak seven sometimes eight you know the good thing is that normal when your output is more that you a might using the ketones in my body like and that’s why yeah that’s my blood that’s my theory but I don’t know yeah I see this in athletes too and you could do like well I guess you’d call there’s a glucose tolerance test right and athletes if they consume glucose and then look at the rise in glucose over time you know a person who’s sedentary will have a big spike in glucose and then it’ll come down but a person who’s like an athlete right will have an attenuated rise and that glucose because their peripheral tissue there’s more glucose disposal into the tissue so the more you’re in a state of ketosis the better been more beneficial effects you get from it and the greater ketone transport and utilization you’ll have in peripheral tissues so you’ll have greater ketone disposal so if I’m sitting here at my desk in my ketones are three millimolar and I do a brisk walk around campus and come back I could be down to below 0.2 or like 0.5 or you know something like that it can because your your it’s a it’s a fuel that your body is using so you can be sucking it up from your body so if you do measure ketones it’s really important to do it if you’ve been sedentary it’s sitting in your spot at the desk or whatever for at least like an hour right that’s that’s way so that your the ketones can kind of build up in your blood a little bit and you’re not actively moving around and using them so that’s the only way to get a reliable measure from it and you could take an athlete and consume like a big concentrated form of ketones and a ketone ester and put them on a bike and then you can see that level go down very fast and that’s a good reflection of that that person is actually a really good ketone utiliser whereas if you take maybe a person that’s a couch potato and have them drink a ketone ester to get their ketones way up and you start exercising them you might see a much slower decrease in their ketone levels because their body has not adapted to the the transport there’s there’s various transporters like the mono carboxylic acid transporter and there’s type 1 2 3 & 4 and these are distributed differently in different tissues and the muscle and the CNS and various tissues will up regulate these transporters up to 50 percent within a month or two following a huge ranked diet so you get these ketones across cell membranes and across different things so they can be utilized in two pathways where there’s also an upregulation of catalytic enzymes which allow those ketones to be transformed into energy and all these things are kind of up regulated over time so so it’s not common it’s not uncommon what you describe is a you know athletes in particular maybe registering low ketone levels especially if you’re active and moving around so to really get an accurate reflection of what your ketone levels are and if you’re making them is to just be sedentary if you can do that yeah my desk is standing too actually right now I just sat down because it was guys good to vary this yeah I got the rear desk just saying one I got this my students by a firm yes awesome oh right you know like I’m doing cuz I’m like I’ve got less you like I’m a little neurotic right so I have to actually I walk around a scale in my bag I go to those places if they don’t have their stuff on my fitness pal I’ll actually wait you know like in front of people were yeah but you know and I’m like so when I say that I’m good I’m in the I’m doing Aikido macro so what’s happening but my theory was that I was actually using ketones and this this that that helps me definitely ask my appreciate that I heard you say on Joe Rogan did you get the more you’re on the ketogenic diet the better like they effects get better and better over time can you can explain it yeah well I could tell you like even from my personal perspective and just communicating with hundreds of people once you start the ketogenic diet there’s this learning curve that you go through right so it’s like a lot of the benefits it’s try to kind of sometimes hard to figure out is it just because you’re figuring out what your macro ratios should be you know your food selection it’s like maybe I shouldn’t be eating all this cheese or dairy doesn’t work with me so but regardless I mean if you look at animal studies for example you know there are adaptations what we call keto adaptations overtime or some of the things that you know I talked about a little bit where there’s an upregulation of various proteins that are associated with the transport of ketones and with the utilization of ketones as an energy source and and so the more you do it yeah it’s like any anything if you take somebody who’s adapted to high carbohydrates and give them the cue drink diet that’s a stress to their body I mean they might actually have like some people get the keto rash some people get the keto flu some people’s immune system kind of collapses you know and I think a lot of these effects can be mitigated with ketone supplements can be helpful but I think once your body adapts and that’s going to be different for different people then you start to reap the benefits of ketones with having beta-hydroxybutyrate elevated and it doesn’t have to be two or three or five millimolar I just think elevating it to like you know 1 millimolar is 10 times higher than a normal person have like on a normal diet and that represents a significant amount of energy and a powerful signaling molecule in your blood just getting up to 0.5 to 1 millimolar so that’s actually radically changing things you know in your body from different standpoints so if you do that over time I think you’re gonna find some really significant effects and you could you know look at this from the perspective of you know I kind of look at it from the perspective of patients that have done this for type 2 diabetes and obesity if you look at inflammatory markers if you look at metabolic markers like these things kind of improve over time after about 3 months then they kind of level off after about 3 months the health biomarkers but if you look at like advanced athletes you know it may take about 6 months for them to kind of get back into to be optimized to to the point where they’re actually making now personal records in there whether it be in the lifting in the gym or on the track or on the cycle a lot of cyclists are using this where they’re it takes about a half a year of adapting to the diet and adapting to it’s really a lifestyle and eating this way to the point where their body has adapted where it’s actually they’ve changed probably even you know through mitochondrial biogenesis or even enhancing and up regulating various metabolic pathways to use fats and ketones better as a fuel source and it may be in some cases a lot of these athletes do use small amounts of carbohydrates but they still stay ketogenic because their output so high so they’re not decreasing their body’s ability to use glucose as an energy source they are just leveraging the ability to use more fats and ketones as an energy source can’t endorse when it hits the wall and then they start dying when they switch to ketosis whether they went into a nice it’s kind of like living a nest or being able to access that state more fruit yep and when you hit the wall essentially what that means is that whew flow to your brain is compromised in some way so if you have ketones elevated that’s going to prevent you from balking because your brain is going to say it’s happy now it’s getting enough fuel source you know from your liver glycogen or even muscle glycogen could be tapped out if you’re doing these super high you know races or ultra marathons which I would never do my knees and but uh but yet so you’re just leveraging a different fuel source so you have like a backup a backup system of energy for your brain and that prevents you from bonking and you know keeps you it probably has a big role on perceived exertion too so if your brain is getting steady fuel flow then your perceived exertion or dysphoria or whatever kind of situation you get into when you bonk it’s going to be mitigated is that like so is that why a lot of athletes do that what’s um the targeted ketogenic diet what else take some carbs right before training what are your opinions is that what kind of what you’re talking about like no carbs only like cars before training so they can like have some extra energy and then transition into a burning person for a glucose Center burning fat yeah cortical goals that’s one strategy I think the the people that are using this most successfully are guys that are in the off season they train low carb so they’re always especially by the end of the day after their training they’re hitting some pretty high ketone numbers like two three sometimes four and then so they they train their body to use fat more efficiently as a fuel source and then during they’ll do some pre pre like event trainings where they do like a half of what they would do in an event and then they they experiment with adding some slow burn and carbohydrates in like a you can starch or some other high molecular weight you know starch that burns slow but doesn’t evoke in it an insulin response or a real big spike in glucose you know just a very slow burning carb like a slow carb like Tim Ferriss would say yeah so they they basically train their body you know to use fats and ketones without compromising significantly glucose utilization – because they add like a little bit of carbs in and then during the game day or during the training event they’ll add you know a proportionally they’ll add carbs in but it’ll be nothing like what they used to not like three four you know six seven hundred grams of carbs like they’ll use something like you know a hundred and fifty to maybe two hundred grams of carbs in on a you know a six seven-hour race or something like that I think using races and they’ll do really well on that and they’ll bolus and you know 30 grams here you know another 30 minutes of 30 grams and they’ll mix it – with like different types of fats – so they’re throwing in things and getting very little rise if any you know in in glucose or insulin and they’re using it as their they’re not storing it in any way they’re using it kind of on the fly so I like how like a limping athletes train in Denver with the altitude and then they eat somewhere else the same philosophy guys yep Trina hi yep gotta gotta go so so and what about people who do they call like the cyclical ketogenic I like something like guys who would do I tried this for a brief period of time I was able to put on a you know nice amount of muscle I would do five days just after I got adapted for a little while right yeah five days straight keto and then I would have like car-to-car days on the weekends right you know and then go back into it I saw like ice auger breeze also putting on muscle I didn’t put on too much bad well have you experimented at or you know anything about what are your thoughts on that kind of diet I think it depends a good way to go about testing that would be to to do on the weekends as you mentioned instead of binging on carbohydrates and eating you know four or five under grams of carbs on a Saturday and Sunday you know add if you’re on like 25 grams of carbs a day for do like a real like ketogenic diet on the weekends and you know 100 grams of carbs on a Saturday and Sunday and that may make it you know better if you’re going out to eat or something like that and then see how you feel and then maybe the week after that I’d like maybe 200 grams of carbs per day and and to see how you feel see the effects on your body but if you jump into a kind of a cyclical carb thing you know and add a lot of carbs real quick so I would I’m always you know do everything very metered in moderation so increase really slowly and then you know observe give your body enough time to understand how you react to that observe and then repeat and then tweak repeat and then you know monitor it see what you look like in the mirror check the scale check your strength in the gym check how you feel and assess all these parameters and then move kind of in a very calculated way because different people are gonna have different responses but I think it could be you know really useful to do that especially if you are in a phase where you want to gain muscle gain body weight over time but for some people they just can’t eat enough calories on a ketogenic diet yeah so it might help to get you know some extra calories in and do kind of a targeted ketogenic diet approach like that so that would be my recommendation but you know we haven’t studied it enough to know what’s optimal yeah because I used to do that but I feel is good you know I don’t know if actually feel worse than like my regular or exactly or I just feel so much better into ptosis they got going down a normal sub I don’t know which one it was but I’ve got to point said you know I’m just gonna stay in I’m just gonna stay in ketosis man I’m not gonna its distribute I just felt a lot better like yeah same here yeah I’ll experiment every once in a while and it’s kind of it’s an experiment that I always revalidate to myself yep I feel better in ketosis oh yeah I’ll choose to stay and I don’t do it you know extreme I don’t do you know ninety percent fat I just do a very modified form of the diet and I track I do routine blood work to make sure everything’s okay so it’s not to the point where you know it’s dangerous in any way shape or form traditionally like before like an event or show where I have my shirt off or something whatever and I would try to think some cards the night before today up to like look at the pump up is you think that’s still necessary or like birth no I don’t know I think I think I think I’m pretty good yeah and I’m scared dude because I feel like I’m gonna feel bad you know yeah he told us maybe of my calories or something yeah just eat more of the same foods and so if you are eating more of the same foods the excess protein that you’re consuming or the excess surplus calories mostly in the form of protein or maybe even the the glycerol from the fats that you’re metabolizing will replenish and restore your glycogen stores so do you know I think if you’re trying to try to fill out the days before start ramping up a few days early start your calories a few days early and then do some kind of you know light movements nothing too strenuous that’s gonna like make you hold water or damage the muscle in any way but just use on reps and contracting the muscle with relatively lightly and then you’re gonna help replenished and restore and maximize your muscle glycogen just by throwing in you know an extra you know five hundred to a thousand at the most a thousand calories per day or maybe pick you to 2,000 calories and spread that out and over like three days God and maybe cut the cardio out at that point like right before the show yeah okay all right sorry alright niggled ah man listen I just feel like I could talk to you all day but you got stuff to do you know but this is man I just it’s been an honor to speak with you and just thank you so much where should people go to get more information about you yeah I would say keto nutrition all one word orgy and I have resources on there I got you know a lot of information on there that I think you know will answer a lot of questions that people have about this and it’s a website I’m continuing to build it up and add more resources to it but it has dieticians as clinical trials it has consultants that do things for you know body composition and fitness on there too so that’s my go-to website awesome man yo thanks again you stay on for Sammy indeed but thanks again okay [Music]

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