Dr Jason Fung   The Sugar Free Show with Dr Jason Fung – DR.jason fung

Dr Jason Fung The Sugar Free Show with Dr Jason Fung – DR.jason fung


hi everybody and welcome to you the sugar free sugar with myself Caron Thompson and nutritionist Emily McGuire today we have the amazingly phenomenal Canadian dr. Jason Fung with us he has just released this book called the obesity code and I feel very privileged because I think I’m one of the only people in South Africa that have a have my hands on your copy of it it is probably one of the best books I’ve read not because it’s brilliant but because I actually want to keep reading it it’s not one of those medical books that’s incredibly challenging and hard to understand it flows beautifully and you can see Jason knows exactly what he’s talking about you know when he has written this book so I’m gonna read the bio from the book it’s called the obesity code and dr. Jason funk grew up in Toronto Canada and completed both medical school and an internal medicine residency at the University of Toronto he headed to the University of California and Los Angeles completing his fellowship in nephrology which is a kidney disease specialist he now has both a hospital and office based practice in Toronto and is current and is the current chief chief of the department of medicine at the Scarborough hospital general division struggling daily against the worsening epidemic of type 2 diabetes and obesity dr. Fong realized the current recommended treatment of eat less move more was simply not successful it seemed became clear that the model obsession with calories was not the proper model to treat obesity he established the intensive dietary management program to provide patients with a unique commitment focus on hormones rather than diets and the program treats conditions related to metabolic syndrome including obesity type 2 diabetes obstructive sleep apnea and fatty liver with great success it now provides guidance both locally and to international patients from as far as New Zealand to the United Kingdom to South Africa I’m dr. Jason live in Toronto with his wife and two boys and we are so excited to have him on the show welcome Jason thank you thanks for having me very excited to have you back on and you definitely were one of our our favorites from our series so I’m super excited I’ve into this book this I completely mimic what Karan has said and I always needed my full masters on a PC science and I wish I have this book at the time when I when I did that would’ve made it so much easier so we’re just to kind of bring it right back to the beginning where did the notion come from even write it what made you decide to do something a look at etiology and obesity well it’s an interesting process because I was trained kind of as most doctors are in this kind of calories and calories out model and we all learned this you know Beach City is simply too many calories in versus too many calories now or too few calories out I should say and that’s what causes obesity and what was interesting was that in the mid 2000s kind of around the turn of the century there was a lot of interest in the Atkins diet and low carbohydrate diets in general and so there is a number of studies that got started and they were published somewhere around 2006 2007 2008 and I thought along with most doctors thought that this kind of Atkins diet wouldn’t be like killing people right at one it’s some fad diet it’s gonna be terrible you know people are gonna be dying and what was very interesting to me was that they actually that’s not what it showed at all it showed that weight loss was in most cases much better and this is very interesting because it directly contradicted this whole kind of calories and calories out model because a lot of these activations who are eating a lot of fatty foods for example we’re eating just as many calories as before but they’re still losing weight so I thought that was really interesting so I started to look back into it a little bit more now it affects me in my practice quite a bit because I have a lot of type 2 diabetics and they are many of them are overweight and that’s kind of where this whole whole thing it started out as a real paradox to me as to one why this would work at this diet would work at all and then it led me to kind of look deeper into that and realize that there’s a lot of paradoxes in nutrition that really just don’t make a lot of sense so you really have to go back to this kind of calories in calories out model and think about this entire paradigm and and to realize that it really hasn’t worked and the fact that it doesn’t work is actually right in front of us right because we’ve been pushing this whole calorie model for at least forty years and obesity has just exploded it’s like do diabetes slow down I deal with all the downstream consequences these these patients who are losing their kidney function in the pipeline they’re losing their legs from amputations and so on and that’s where really where it came from it really it made me realize a few other things on for example as doctors we were just giving a lot of medications but at the same time we knew that if you could make these patients lose weight the diabetes would go away like nobody doubts that right for all the people who say that is a chronic disease when that patient comes into you and says you know I lost 50 pounds my diabetes went away you know oh you’re lying right it’s pranic disease you’re lying to me right you say of course it did right because you lost the weight and the diabetes went away so at the same time that we knew that it was a dietary disease that was entirely treatable and preventable we didn’t care to bits to actually treat it or prevent it all we cared about was giving more medications giving more insulin and then putting them on dialysis right and that was a real kind of eye-opener to me that we weren’t actually doing any good here so you actually have to go back to the root cause of the entire problem which is the obesity and then you have to go from obesity to what is causing this obesity right because again when we deal with the disease we always ask what’s causing this disease right but for obesity we never ask this question because we think we know the answer we think that it’s all about Cal but when you actually think about it logically the answer doesn’t make any sense because if you think that it’s all calories that causes the disease and you can simply reduce calories and you lose weight now that’s only been done in probably like eighty percent of the world’s population has tried that right and it’s failed in virtually every case and again when you look back at the studies that have been done they bear out that this kind of caloric reduction model fail so I quote a study in the UK where they pulled the records of weight loss and I think it was like GPS electronic records and the failure rate to deal with obesity is somewhere around ninety nine point four percent right so our advice to cut calories fails in ninety nine point four percent which means it’s guaranteed to fail and the proof is you know fairly obvious everybody’s done it and nobody succeeds and so why would we continue to give this advice and but even worse why would we not question the science behind this advice and saying well you know our advice is based on calories and calories out why do you accept that that is the correct model it’s obviously wrong it obviously has failed the proof is in the pudding right so that’s that kind of where it all kind of came from mmm-hmm so when we talk about the calories in calories out model I mean with that we’re making a lot of assumptions basically arm lis which you can a cover in the book as well so what what are we assuming when we say calories an equal calorie though and therefore causing weight loss or weight gain yeah there’s a few major assumptions one is that calories in is kind of independent of calories out that is if you say that fat gain is calories in minus calories out you assume that you can reduce your calories in and calories out will stay exactly the same right and if that is the case then yes you will lose weight unfortunately and we’ve known this for only about a hundred years that when you reduce the calories in the calories out goes down as well and that’s only logical because if you think about it for example if you make a hundred thousand dollars a year and you spend a hundred thousand dollars what would happen if your salary suddenly went down to fifty thousand dollars a year would you continue to spend $100,000 a year no you wouldn’t you wouldn’t be that stupid and the body isn’t that stupid either right I don’t know why we assume our body is completely stupid like that right if you reduce your calories from 2000 to 1500 your body simply adapts because that’s how you’d survive right so you reduce your calorie expenditure by the same amount so that you balance out but the problem is I mean again we know this happens for sure in when you simply reduce your calories the problem is that if you started out earning 2,000 calories eating 2,000 calories you go down now it’s of eating 1,500 and burning 1,500 now you’re only burning 1500 s you’re cold you’re tired you have no energy but you’re not losing weight right and that’s the whole problem so you Plateau then you go back up to say 1700 calories because you figure oh well this isn’t really worth it you’re only burning 1500 so all that weight just comes right back so the calories in and the calories out are very much linked so if you in fact raise your calories in you deliberately overeat your caloric expenditure actually goes up as well so it works in both ways so that’s one major assumption in this horse sort of calories and calories out model that doesn’t work because all the kind of people who defend it always say oh why you don’t believe in physics the laws of thermodynamics and that’s not the point the point is that the laws of thermodynamics always hold but the fact is that and nobody’s breaking any laws of thermodynamics right the simple fact is that you’ve made this assumption that they’re independent and they’re not the other major assumption we’ve made is that the both the calories in and the calories out are our conscious decision it’s a conscious decision at what you eat and how much exercise you do therefore oh it’s your decision so therefore if you gain weight it’s your fault right and this is the whole part that I actually think people are unfair about obesity is that we blame the people who are the victims right so it’s blame the victim if you’re a victim you get blamed because it has your fault right you let yourself go and all the stuff that we say but yet we know that for example if you look at appetite there are hormones that make you hungry and there are hormones which make you full right so what you eat does not determine simply on your will it’s determined based on your hormonal influences so we know that Karelin is a hunger hormone we know peptide YY cholecystokinin all these hormones make you full and you know that because for example if you are very hungry and you smell you know porkchop sizzling on the on the you know stove it makes you hungry but if you’ve just eaten a huge meal it probably makes you a little bit nauseous so the same stimulus the same porkchop the same smells has completely different effects based on your hormonal influences so we know that weight loss when you lose weight and try and maintain it over a year that those hunger hormones go up and the satiety hormones go down that is you are actually hungry your body is trying to make you think that weight back so when people that fall off their diet we assume it’s their fault but it’s not their hormones are telling them to gain weight they went about the diet all raw that’s the whole problem right and the same thing with the calories out we assume it’s all exercise but almost none of it is exercise because if you look at calories so example you earn 2,000 calories for example say you go on a treadmill and you walk for 45 minutes if you’ve ever been on one of those those calorie counting models you see that the number rises very slowly well after like half an hour whatever you’ve burned like a hundred hundred fifty calories or something right so in other words ninety-five percent of your energy expenditure is not exercise it’s you know your brain your heart your lungs your kidney your liver all of that takes energy to burn right the amount you burn generating body heat that kind of thing can go up or down so most of that is not under a conscious control so again we have this whole sort of mentality where we want to blame blame the people who are gaining weight at home in you know we say that it’s their fault but really it’s not their fault and the reason we do that is because you know we’ve given this advice to eat less and move more that’s been our standard advice for 40 years and it’s failed right so as the kind of nutritional authorities you can believe one of two things so there’s two infantry infantry vertical facts right one we’ve told people to eat less move more calories in calories out and to obesity has just exploded so either the advice is not cracked in which case that’s you know their fault or they can shift the blame and say well we gave really good advice but you guys just fail to take it completely or blame something else entirely right it’s it’s you know too many cars it’s video games it’s computers whatever it is right you blame something else other than the advice that you gave right and so you say that oh video games which came around in 1980 right with Atari oh that was what’s caused it well you know it doesn’t make any sense or cards it’s not like cars suddenly spiked up in 1977 so that’s the reason that they have to blame somebody else because they can’t believe that this advice is so wrong because they’ve never questioned the assumptions underlying their paradigm and that’s really what I talk about is that this this theory of calories and calories out this whole first law of thermodynamics it’s led us so far astray and nobody ever questions that piece that’s the key piece that’s really been killing us because as long as you believe that as long as you believe that everything else that follows is wrong and that’s really where we’ve gone kind of off the tracks and we really just have no idea what we’re doing obesity mmm-hmm so if we look at the model of the BCC and I like the way that you before the in your book on any model I think so what you’re saying is income C’s is mostly predominately with our hormones and I think you don’t see color on it so can you take us through kind of what you mean by that what hormones actually play a rule or we kind of get that idea now is that gonna come into light or are we still really far to move from understanding what is even pounding for the most part we’re pretty far from understanding but again if you think about what causes obesity you have to really look at the hormone because almost really control everything in our body right so the main hormone that we’re dealing with is insulin so there’s an overlap between calories and insulin of course but because if you all foods tend to that that can contain calories tend to also raise insulin but they’re not equally so you can’t say that a hundred calories of food will raise insulin X amount because it depends on what that food is so if you eat carbohydrates refined carbohydrates sugar and Brad and so on the insulin will spike up way higher than if you eat say olive oil so therefore for the same amount of calories you have different effects on insulin and the the way you know that insulin is the major player is that you have to look at whether or not insulin causes obesity right so if your theory now is that insulin causes obesity then you can do an experiment where you look where insulin is high do people gain weight right or if you give insulin if you give people insulin well they gain weight that’s the real question you want to know and of course every time you look for that it’s true so when you prescribe insulin people gain weight when you give medications that raisins then they gain weight when you treat diabetes but don’t raise insulin like with metformin they don’t gain weight so again you can see that every time you cause a rise in insulin weight goes up every time you cause a decrease in insulin it goes down so you know that it’s the major causal player then you can go back and you say insulin is the major player cortisol as well but insulin is the major player causing weight gain then you say well what are the major things that raise and lower insulin and this is where we this is where kind of I move into a bit more newer stuff which is that for many years it was just all carbohydrates people talked about carbohydrates raising insulin but of course even within carbohydrates there’s a huge discrepancy between how much insulin of fact and how much by seeming effect for example you have so if you look at the glycemic index certain carbohydrates raise insulin raise glucose a lot and others don’t at all so sweet potato for example if you look at the glycemic index it’s not very high compared to say white bread or even whole wheat bread so in carbohydrate foods the insulin index tracks very closely to the glycemic index so things like carrots and so on they just don’t have that so there’s lots of carbohydrates or beans there’s lots of carbohydrates there but the effect on the glycemic index is not as high as say the Snickers bar or whatever you have and then you have to apply the same reasoning not just to carbohydrate foods but also to proteins and fats as well and then the other thing because it turns out that you’re not trying to measure the glycemic effect you want to know the insulin effect and certain proteins can also raise insulin a lot so if they’re raising it a lot and you’re also getting any potentially poor effect for women so that’s why we don’t try to use a super high protein diet so and I think you’re kind of touching upon that but in your book and the one thing that I like about it BCE code is it takes the the carbohydrate insulin hypothesis that one step further because as you just said it’s not all just about carb spikes your insulin and that’s it so can you talk a little bit more about the the kind of protection factors that you speak about so yes it’s reducing your certain carbohydrates but you also talked a lot about the protective factors in this kind of more though yeah so certainly refined carbohydrates are one of the big players and raising insulin but turns out there’s other things which will help lower insulin as well so things such as fiber so you can do experiments where you give people liquid diets and you measure how high insulin goes and when you take a lot of fiber it turns out the insulin goes up much less so that’s good and of course this is what I always think is interesting is that if you look in nature at natural unprocessed foods except for honey almost all carbohydrate foods also have fiber whereas dietary fats and dietary proteins just about never have fiber so it’s very interesting that if you take a lot of processed foods and simply strip out everything other than the carbohydrate which is what we do with flour for example you’ve taken out all the protective factors the proteins the fats the dietary fat has the same effect of lowering that influence light and the fiber which is all very protective so if you eat natural unprocessed foods not only are you getting all the carbohydrate but you’re also getting all those other protective factors along with it which explains how you can eat a very high carbohydrate unprocessed carbohydrate foods such as you have with issei Okinawan sweet a lot of sweet potato and still have very low insulin levels so the most famous study was the Katahdin study which was about a 70% carbohydrate diet but when they measured the insulin levels of these Italians their insulin levels are not high they’re actually very very low so he compared it to his own Swedish cohort and they’re at about the fifth percentile which means that their insulin levels are lower than 95% of the Swedish population so super super super low insulin levels despite the fact that they have very high carbohydrate intake but it’s all unprocessed carbohydrates raised you’re getting all the protective factors so fiber is one of them dietary fats are another one of them vinegar is an interesting one because that also has been shown to reduce that sort of insulin spike and people use that for example to try and reduce their glucose and it’s interesting because it’s been one of these kind of traditional remedies that’s been used through the years for weight loss if you’re in water and it’s kind of making a little bit of a comeback in that so so vinegar has very popular but also fermented foods so fermented foods are not acid like vinegar but it’s lactic acid so kimchi for example is getting a lot of play natto which is a fermented soybean product and sauerkraut and also things like sourdough bread which is you know very interesting because people talk about sourdough breads not that bad free well it has a lot of lactic acid so again you’re protecting yourself Italians for example you bread with olive oil and vinegar when you look at studies such as there’s a very large study looking at all the oil and vinegar dressings and they show a protective effect as well and you know you know so when you start looking around you can see a lot of these things and they all kind of fit this hypothesis that it’s really all about the insulin it’s not that insulin is bad and some people who don’t understand they say oh you’re just demonizing insulin it’s like no it’s excessive insulin what I’m saying is that obesity is a disease of excessive insulin right it’s not that insolence bags but it’s too high and that’s what drives obesity so if you understand that too much insulin drives obesity then you have a rational way to say ok now I need to lower my insulin levels that includes cutting my carbohydrates but includes a lot of other things and the other thing I on which very very few people actually talk about is how insulin resistance and it plays a huge role in obesity and how it leads to this kind of time-dependent phenomenon of obesity which is pretty much ignored by most kind of theories of obesity that is to say that if you think it’s all about the calories or even if you think it’s all about the carbohydrates that would mean that losing weight for somebody who has been overweight for 25 years is going to be the same whether you’re overweight for 25 years or 25 days as long as you cut the carbs or calories the same but it’s nothing the same right nobody in their right mind would think that it’s the same thing the people who have been overweight for many many years have a hell of a time losing weight and you know I don’t have any studies to back it up but everybody kind of understands that right and and it’s not because they eat more whatever it’s because they have a law it’s an resistance which is keeping their insulin levels high and you can’t simply ignore that and there’s the same with the fructose right everybody points to fructose and how bad it is and I think it’s bad but how do you reconcile that because fructose so if you’re a calorie person you’d say wow you could take a hundred grams of pure fructose or how many calories of pure fructose or a hundred calories of olive oil and they’ll be the same well they’re noting the same right if you’re a carbohydrate guy you’d say well you can take a hundred grams of fructose or a hundred grams of beans and they’ll be the same they’re nothing that’s saying right fructose is much worse for you and everybody kind of understands that a lot about the sugars after all that’s what we talk about but why is sugar so so so bad and it’s really because it ties directly into the insulin resistance whereas glucose does not so even if you’re to eat bread and stuff it’s not actually I don’t think as bad as eating like a lot of sugar now I think people have recognized that for sure if you look at sales of soda if you look at sugar overall it’s coming down which is great it’s great news but this kind of theory of where where you look at the insulin resistance and the fructose front those causes a lot of fatty liver which causes a lot of insulin resistance directly without even the obesity get a lot of insulin resistance can you you’re just about to touch on the fructose there so you can take my question away and with that but there is a lot of and I think people still get confused between glucose and corn and I were actually just talking about this before you came on with us Jason and can you just kind of sort breakdown why is fructose you know worse for the body than biblical it’s kind of what happens biochemically and try simple terms for the waters going on with it right so if you look at insulin so insulin is the key driver for pcity right so if you take Luke OHS that will raise insulin levels he’ll raise your sugar and raise your insulin but fructose does not do that the glycemic index is very low so it doesn’t raise your blood sugar and doesn’t directly raise your insulin so you think that it was better and a lot of for a lot of years people thought it was better for you first you know as soon as they started using it they realized it’s really really bad so insulin also leads if you have constant stimulation of insulin what you get is insulin resistance and insulin resistance will then lead back to higher insulin levels right it’s a vicious cycle so it’s kind of like when you yell at your kids right if you yell at them the first time listen right away but if you yell at them all the time they stop listening to you right and that’s the same as the body if your insulin levels are always high it’s like the insulin is always yelling at these cells and the cells stop responding eventually right so what the body does the knee-jerk reaction is to yell even louder right same as our kids right you just yell even louder so the problem is that it’s a vicious cycle you see that if you if insulin is yelling at the cell the cell becomes resistant so the body yells even louder of course when you yell louder you develop more resistance so insulin resistance is a way that the insulin levels stay high and worse than that they stay high for a long period of time and it’s an abyss this vicious cycle which is why if you’ve had obesity for 15 years it’s a lot harder you’ve been going around this cycle for a long time where fructose ties in is that it actually directly causes insulin resistance so when you eat say a hundred grams of pure glucose say like Brad so it’s just glucose it’s not from dose your sugar goes up your insulin goes up but the glucose can be used by almost every cell in the body so your body can actually disperse that energy of that glucose to your muscles to your liver to your kidney to your brain to everywhere right and all the muscles of the all the muscles everything all the cells of your body are busy using up this glucose if you were to take a hundred grams of pure fructose nah no cell other than the liver can actually use that fructose so the problem is that all of that fructose goes directly into the liver right so instead of being able to disperse this energy and have all the cells kind of help you out and you know Bernadotte only the liver has that job right and it’s like just like when you have you know you have a lot of work to do if you have you know hundred people doing it yeah that’s pretty easy but if you have one person doing it all piles up that’s exactly what happens to the front dose so if the fructose all goes into the liver the liver can’t handle it because it’s only one organ right it’s not like the entire body is helping you out the entire body is doing nothing to help you out so it all piles up what it does is it turns into fatty liver and the fatty liver is what causes all this insulin resistance so as the insulin resistance goes up it directly feeds into this loop of insulin resistance and high insulin levels right so if you eat a lot of fructose you get the insulin resistance then the body is going to raise the insulin because it needs to yell at the cell louder right to overcome this resistance and then you set up it’s like you all over again so it’s not in the short-term truck dose is not a problem in the short-term if you eat a little bit of sugar once in a while yeah sure it’s probably not the worst thing in the world but when you have this kind of chronic overconsumption it will it will lead downstream to a lot of problem and feeds directly into the second kind of loop which is really bad because it’s self-perpetuating right so if the insulin resistance leads to more insulin needs to have more insulin resistance it’s Petre its itself it’s a vicious cycle so even if you cut out the fructose that cycle once it’s established keeps going and that’s the whole problem and that’s why some people find it really hard to lose weight because it’s it’s there they’re changing their diet and they’re like we can’t do anything it’s like yeah because you’ve got resistance like crazy so the high insulin resistance of course is the key part of type 2 diabetes it’s that’s the pathophysiology of that I think that’s been one of the best explanations I’ve heard on fructose and its impact so I think thank you for her that I didn’t that was really and where would you then say artificial sweeteners come into play and can award your thoughts on those in the diet yeah I think that they act they have pretty much no role to play now the thing is that yeah you know I get all kinds of flack from people who really like these artificial sweeteners right so the calorie people they love again a look at the bottom line of you know the problem with a lot of nutritional researchers nobody seems to use a lot of logic so if artificial sweeteners were really great and they really worked then we wouldn’t have an obesity crisis would we it’s not like nobody’s heard of Diet Coke right everybody’s heard of Diet Coke everybody drinks Diet Coke is very popular it doesn’t work because nobody loses weight drinking a lot of bike right so yes you can cut the calories from the soda down but you can’t treat the obesity so if it doesn’t work it means that those artificial sweeteners are not taking care of the problem and the problem is that in some people the insulin goes up just as high with the any a lot of studies were done on aspartame but it goes up just as high with the aspartame as it does with the sugar and that’s why what you see is that there’s more overall benefit now I think that in some people they don’t have that problem and stevia people ask me about stevia all the time the studies are not all there with stevia and some people it appears to do the same but again if you think about it it’s very easy to tell whether or not this is gonna work for you use the artificial sweeteners if you start losing a lot of weight hey great go ahead and use it like do you know how many people like what percentage does gonna work in like I don’t know 0.5% right everybody’s done that already so if you think it’s gonna work for you go ahead do it right but I doubt very much that it’s gonna work otherwise we wouldn’t have to talk about all this stuff we just stick stevia and everything we eat and we’d be fine and it was the same idea I don’t know if you ever had that fake FAQ olestra united’s I don’t know about ten years ago there was this fake fat so it was the same idea as artificial sweeteners instead of using real fat you use this fake fat the body can’t absorb it goes right through you and then you don’t absorb it so the additional calories right it didn’t work at all right it turned out to be one of the like 10 worst ideas ever like by Time magazine it was quite funny actually but people didn’t buy it people didn’t lose and it was because they didn’t lose weight right so yeah you’ve got fake fat you’ve got fake sugar so really if it was all about you know using these artificial chemicals to trick our bodies yeah we would have solved this thing like ages ago right but the thing is that it hasn’t worked and aspartame has been around since the 70s right and it doesn’t really help at all so therefore it must not have any overall benefits and again it’s because it raises insulin just to the same level right sorry xylitol is harder to know the studies really just aren’t there like the difference is that you use very little of the xylitol compared to six some of the chemicals so I don’t I you know I tried looking at some studies but I really don’t see any studies of whether or not it works or not I think the key is to if you’re you are gonna use it just to use a little bit of it just as you need it but the key is you know I don’t really know whether or not that’s gonna good or not it doesn’t have any calories but whether or not it stimulates insulin or not that’s really the question because again it’s not calories that drives obesity it’s the insulin which drives obesity you know so this islets Hall I don’t know I don’t I don’t really know a lot of there’s a lot of stuff used like if you look at studies like gum like there’s a lot of chewing gum you lose these sugar alcohols but the amount is very small so it’s hard to know right the thing is there’s a trend in South Africa where people are doing these Banting baked goods where they literally use a huge amount of xylitol and nut flours and they just creating fake junk food that’s supposedly healthy I have an issue with any sweetener because of the the sugar addiction aspect that I come from where you know anything it triggers cravings for more but I do really think what you’re saying about the insulin resistance is something that we do need to watch and specifically you know hope that more studies are going to come off with that and unsweet nurse to point us in the right direction yeah I have the same I have the same bias that is you know when they talk about a little carb bread or something like that it’s like Oh use this and this instant this I’m like you know to me it’s always don’t look for like the latest and greatest thing because it’s probably not going to work you want to look at kind of the tried and true so that’s why what I touch on at the end is not like the latest and greatest diet trend right fasting which we use a lot of in my clinic is actually probably the first and oldest you know therapeutic read right it’s been used for centuries really millennia right there was a problem that was gonna come up with it we probably would have figured it out a thousand years ago why it was so bad right and that’s the thing it’s the same with these nut flours and so on I I don’t know that there’s any Studies on these kind of you know these kind of paleo bars all this kind of stuff that comes out but I have a little bit biased against it because you know it’s it’s like these miracle cures that come out every so often right it’s like or like these super foods like quinoa and stuff I have nothing against them but it’s like okay well look the Nordic people never ate quinoa okay and they were fine Japanese never 18 what they were fine so it’s not like you have to eat these foods there are definitely ways to have a diet that are full of foods and the thing is that you get back to the point if you eat real whole unprocessed foods our bodies are adapted to it whether it’s you know fish like the Japanese and umami beans whether it’s like whale blubber like the anyway or whether it’s blood like the Masai or whether it’s carbohydrates like yams and sweet potatoes our bodies can deal with that the have two roots in the naturals the way they naturally are okay so we’ve just discovered a potato in South Africa right which apparently comes from Australia and it’s called charisma now this potato apparently it’s not genetically modified it apparently has 9 grams of carbohydrates in the potato compared to the 17 grams of carbohydrate or sweet potato so what could the same be true read the fiber and protective factors of the sweet potato versus the white potato like what would you make of this would you recommend it like what’s the deal well the thing about potatoes in general is that it’s actually quite an interesting if you don’t fry these potatoes they may not actually be that bad because you know there’s a lot of talk about resistance starch and so on which acts very much like fiber right so it’s interesting because the Irish ate a hell of a lot of potatoes and they were eating all that sugar right and it’s interesting to me because there’s obviously the potato and a lot of these kind of starchy underground vegetable sort of things to me I think that the evidence may show that they may not be as bad as long as you don’t deep fry them in vegetable oils for example because we most of our fed potatoes in North America and potato chips in French yeah right not a lot of potatoes right I actually can’t think of the last time anybody offered me a boiled potato right but if you actually look at a single index of boiled potatoes and stuff it’s not bad and the other interesting thing is that if you cook the potato then cool it like with potato salad or something would eat in the fifties you actually generate a large amount of resistant starch which i think is a very very interesting topic because again the resistant starch doesn’t get absorbed and it blocks that sort of things and spike so it gets you to the idea that hey maybe it’s not all in the foods we eat maybe the traditional ways of preparing foods and stuff may have been actually okay like baked potatoes and boiled potatoes and stuff french fried potatoes potato chips maybe right that it’s there’s something perhaps in that high heat cooking in the vegetable oils that we cook them in that is screwing everything up so it makes it a problem and it’s the same with the rice if you look at Asian cultures tons of them rise everywhere and it wasn’t brown rice I can tell you that it wasn’t brown rice it was you know white rice that’s all we want and the thing is that if you look at population studies of the Asians in the eighties there was very little obese fairly old diabetes but look at the amount of carbohydrates their eating was super high but the key was that they ate virtually no sugar so that’s one of the clues because sugar I think is much worse I think it’s like twice as worse and the other thing is that they weren’t eating all the time right they need once or twice right they thought their lunch and their dinner the rice and vegetables rice and vegetables and they’d have these periods where they just weren’t eating right so you can its those periods of where you’re not eating that is gonna help break that cycle of insulin resistance so now of course they’ve gone to the kind of eat all the time and lots of fast food and lots of sugar and in addition to the rice the Chinese are killing it it’s like going crazy with the diabetes and went from like 1% in 1982 like 13% that’s crazy it’s like in 30 years like in a single generation the prevalence of diabetes has gone up like 13,000 percent or something in pain like that that is like crazy but again whether you point the finger at rice it’s hard to say because they eat tons of rice whether you plan to figure out potatoes are to say so I think there there is more there so certainly if if it’s a natural you know something that a potato that people eat yeah maybe it is there’s there’s definitely so much more there to be kind of discovered but what I think is that we have to looking at not so much the macronutrients but really it’s our own body we have to look at right what’s the effect on our bodies what effect on our insulin like and in the timing of the meals which is again something nobody ever covered it’s like if you eat for the minute you get up to the minute you go to bed I don’t think that’s a healthy thing for and I think you’ve lost that kind of balance right but nobody talks about it as long as the carbs are the same and the calories are the same everybody’s as well as the same but it’s I don’t think it is I think if you look at study and to me this is one of the most fascinating pieces of research is that if you look at 1977 USA because a lot of data that I get very easily as Americans they’re eating three times a day and by 2006 is closer to five to six times a day right that can’t be good and nobody talked about it but when somebody actually did a study and looked at what influence has had their conclusion was that the increase in meal timing was about twice as important as the change of diet which to me sounds about right yet we never talked about it we talk like you talk obsessively about you know oh what percentage carbs what percentage fat what percentage protein like this is all questions of what to eat should you eat avocados been doing Bragg should be this should do that and that’s all important but then there’s it’s entire thing about oh and then we asked when you eat it’s like oh yeah whatever right it’s like why do we do that we don’t think about the meal timing question and I think it’s actually something that we totally missed right like eat it first thing in the morning I you know if you look at circadian rhythms your hunger is at its very lowest point that ADM great rhythm so why how would you want to force yourself to eat if you want to lose more weight that is not winning strategy right and that’s the thing we don’t consider all these other things you can kind of assess about this one thing like calories or fat or this and that you got to look at the whole picture there’s like so many different things that are going on here and it might be different from for you than it is for me right I mean this is the thing that I always think is interesting like if your car doesn’t start right for one guys because I have no gas for the next guy it’s because yes the spark plugs are gone right the guy with no gas oh look I filled up on gas now my car works perfectly so he tells the other guy it has to be the gas right and he fills up on gas and doesn’t work right and there’s the same oh I changed my spark plugs and you know it worked perfectly so Haskell eats right and then they fight right I was like oh my god right it’s different there’s so many different pieces of the puzzle here like it’ll be different right one person it could be insulin resistance and next it could be cortisol the next it could be you know carbohydrates and next it could be from those in the next it could be you know any number of different things like eating all the time right you know to me again sleep deprivation is another fabulously interesting because there’s no calories and there’s no carbohydrate for example yet we all know that sleep deprivation causes weight gain like all the studies show it why is that well it’s because it raises cortisol which raises glucose and chronically raises in Flint but again you’re talking about it’s a hormonal issue it’s a cortisol issue why does chronic pain syndromes and fibromyalgia and so on cause weight gain it’s a cortisol issue right and and that’s the thing is that it’s not calories it’s not this it’s not that but it could be different right somebody’s problem could be sleep deprivation and and hey it doesn’t work because their problem was sleep deprivation right so you understand this in politic diseases but for some reason we think that there’s only one true king right there’s only one thing that matters in obesity and it’s calories or it’s carved or it’s that no there’s not ten different things and it could be but yours are sleep deprivation and you’re going to ketogenic diet and doesn’t work for you then you say oh the ketogenic diet sucks well it was not your problem and that’s what I love about the book is that it’s about treating obesity as a hormonal rather than a caloric imbalance by taking into account not only the food that we eat but also you mentioned meditation and stuff in the book which i think is absolutely fantastic but i’m gonna rename you dr. jason fast Fung because you have become known as the king of busting an open awesome questions about fasting and specifically there’s one here from Maryland who say she skips back breakfast every day and eat in a six hour window versus a 24 hour fast once or twice a week she just wondered which work better and quickest to reversed fatty liver disease and I know you’ve got some great meal plans here for 24 and 36 hour fasts in the book which is fantastic but if you could just talk us through it a little bit and I do recommend everybody get the book because all the info is in here yeah so the key is that fatty liver disease is also a disease of too much insulin right so the whole point is how are you gonna lower insulin and all those strategies works only time restricted eating which is eating in a six hour window which means that you have like a 18 hour fast everyday kind of thing works well 24 hour fasting twice a week works well it really there there’s no kind of best way great it really depends on one how it fits into your schedule and to which one you prefer so I mean we’ve put hundreds of people on fast and it’s very interesting because some people will come back and say oh man those those those long fasts I can’t do more than like 24 hours and say okay we’ll do it more frequently right and other people come back and they say oh the seven days works so easy for me right let’s say it’s just great if you like that and we’ll do that so it really doesn’t matter so much which one you do but which one works the best for your lifestyle so for example for me I like to have dinner every night with my family so I very very rarely go more than 24 hours because it doesn’t work for me right if you’re having dinner with you know your family and that’s the time that you get to get there and have it you don’t want to ruin that simply for the sake of fasting like yeah once in a while you do it it’s okay and this is where some of the kind of traditional societies had got it right so you have societies like the Greek Orthodox where there’s fasting everywhere but it’s a societal thing everybody does it so it’s not like you’re missing out everybody’s fasting at the same time and that’s terrific you get that kind of social support and may but you have to figure out what makes most sense for you and everybody is different so I think most work whether you want to do kind of you know 18 hours every day or two 24 hour fast and a week whatever works for you is whatever works the best you know for me what works is I skipped breakfast kind of five days out of seven and then a couple of times a week I also skip lunch which is a 24 hour fast and that worked well enough for me of course if I have Christmas holidays where I’m kind of eating kind of constantly and much heavier than modern and in January I will do more fasting in that and then you know a couple weeks later and that’s why you should wait if I go on a cruise I am NOT going too fast on that cruise right because that’s not the point the point is that these diets have to be intermittent because life is not constant right they’re gonna be big periods and small periods and again this is where the traditional societies and major religions have it right the cycle of life is not constant dietary restriction it’s feast and fast right Christmas you’re gonna eat a lot and and Lent you’re gonna eat very little that’s the cycle right that it’s not you know never eat ice cream the rest of your life ever again right even if you go to you know your son’s wedding and he wants you to eat a piece of cake you’ll say no right it’s like okay that’s not the point here right the point is that this is you know a strategy that is flexible and allows you to do things when you want to do things and more of it when you need to and less of it when you need to so that’s the entire point of the kind of exercise so that’s why fasting there’s so many advantages with fasting yeah that’s when I you know some of the things we talked about it will be coming up actually in another but it’s it’s it’s you know why it’s so much easier and why it’s more beneficial because it’s flexible because it doesn’t cost money because you don’t have to think about it because it simplifies your life right so like eating you know home-cooked meals all the time is great it takes a lot of time right and whereas fasting is kind of free so there’s a lot of benefits there I haven’t I don’t touch on that so much in this book but definitely it’s not a lot of advantages and again there’s the fact that it’s been used for such a long time successfully right everybody always comes to me and say I can’t do that I’m like you know that literally millions of people over thousands of years have done it right everybody can do it right it’s the fact that our society makes people believe that they can’t right you can’t even see the single meal without somebody jumping down your throat right you skip breakfast and somebody’s jumping right I mean I’m gonna question it’s got a selfish question actually but um I’m just gonna ask it and I seen what does that do to my insulin because often I won’t have breakfast right I won’t have traditional breakfast or lunch but I’m having coffee with cream throughout the day so yeah you know there yeah so the thing about it is that the cream is that it’s not that bad because most of it is fat so if you look at dietary fat the point is to have low insulin right the point is not to but that’s the major point that if you put fat dietary fat it has very little effect on insulin now most people don’t eat your fat as a meal you don’t eat like a bit of olive oil for lunch right you usually eat it with other stuff which is why you don’t see it that often but if you have coffee with cream there’s a little bit of protein there so you do raise your insulin slightly but it’s low enough that it probably makes no difference at all so in our clinic that people have coffee with cream no problem technically it’s fast but I don’t you know I’m not a purist right I I want to know what works and so we’ve had people who very few people it doesn’t work and then we tell them to go on just pure water like water fasting but it’s very rare it’s probably less than like 1% of people most people can do it problem so if you look at Michael Mosley’s 5:2 diet which is big in the UK he lies 500 calories on a fasting day so again you can take a little bit of calories without kind of breaking the kind of hormonal changes that you’re looking which is basically a period of very low insulin levels that’s what you’re aiming for so in the United States I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of bulletproof coffee yeah kind of popular on the west coast among kind of Silicon Valley crab so you’re blending in butter and stuff into your coffee and there’s a huge amount of calories right it’s like a meat ma says it’s all fat right and that’s the point you’re taking a lot of calories but none of those calories will stimulate your insulin particularly at all so even though you have a lot of calories you have very little insulin effect so in essence you’re still doing you know what’s sometimes called the fact fast which is just taking dietary fats so again you’re providing that very low level of instant that you’re looking for so it works it works a lot of people great so that’s why it’s very popular among some and some think it’s like the worst thing ever but really if you think about it it actually makes a lot of sense to me to do that so coffee with cream or bulletproof coffee or coffee with coconut oil tell them yeah go ahead do it if you don’t you can change because you’ve got some great an insulin resistant hacks you know to kind of like contour after insulin effect with your vinegar trick to add the two tablespoons of vinegar to meals that contain high carbohydrate and also to add some cinnamon tea coffee I’m aright I’ve heard you say that somewhere yeah sentiment is also another interesting one which has been used a lot for diabetics actually so some people get a tremendous effect of it but certainly there’s some people who feel that I did actually helps lower the blood sugars as well which is going to lower the kind of insulin effect and in any in any case the cinnamon is just a great addition for flavor and stuff right it kind of breaks the monotony a little bit and send him into a lot of stuff it just adds a lot of flavor so yeah the vinegar is not that tasty right has been used again traditionally for you know like hundreds and hundreds of years right and it’s always interesting to me how these kind of ancient peoples figured it out like long time ago probably through trial and error that hey vinegars all these benefits right and and they just incorporated it even though they didn’t know any of the science behind it and then now we can say oh yeah I’m great it’s like yeah well they knew that like ages ago right so that that part is always interesting to me but the fasting is another one that people figured that out ages ago right and it’s not because it was super unhealthy they figured they told people to do it because they knew it was very very healthy the funny part about it is that in Hollywood all these stars I’m sure that all these stars fast why because it worked well right but none of them talked about it because there’s this whole stigma of anorexia and all the stuff there’s a bulb and so they don’t talk about it um I’m willing to bet that every single one of these you know celebrities fast when they need to look good and you know what they don’t understand that it’s actually really healthy we’ve got an inpatient clinic where we treat eating disorders and God forbid we would if we had to introduce fasting into the diet day we would be closed on for promoting anorexia I can absolutely see that yeah and then it’s crazy because anorexia is actually a psychiatric disorder image right so it’s like because I use the analogy well you know fasting which is traditional has been used for hundreds of years right you’re not gonna use it in somebody who’s malnourished and underweight first of all so there’s the the other thing is that just because you don’t eat doesn’t mean you get it’s like yeah tricked disorder it’s like saying that oh you should wash your hands in case you get obsessive-compulsive disorder great oh that’s why I don’t wash my head like that’s crazy right obsessive compulsive disorder is a psych disorder right you don’t get it from washing your hands right it’s like good but people don’t make that connection there’s actually a study that shows that it doesn’t yeah fasting doesn’t raise your wrists venorex yeah but you know it’s it’s it’s purely common sense right it’s like think about it again people have fasted for a few thousand severes and anorexia has been around for like you know 60 years kind of thing right there was a little bit before it but it wasn’t an epidemic so it’s always been there that’s about it mmm amazing I know I think well Hollywood people knew it back in the day a lot of people talk about Hugh Jackman for example he talks about it and Beyonce does these Master Cleanse and so a few people do talk about it Jimmy Kimmel who’s a talk-show host there’s a future but for the most part I think that they’re too afraid of being stigmatized for promoting your own wrecks yeah right yeah but but the reason they do it is because you know you got this big premiere coming up or going on the red carpet and you know the camera adds like 10 pounds right so they’re all like oh yeah I got to get rid of it and there’s no you know no better way and no faster way and you know they know it as well as anybody know that’s amazing and we are I’m just getting very conscious of your your time Jason so we’re going to end on a question that we asked everyone at the show and that is I am what would you say are your top three you have tips or live in a sugar free life and I believe just have to be nutrition babe yeah I think that the the top three I mean I think the number one would be really to stick to kind of whole unprocessed foods right I mean the added sugars to me is always the big thing a lot of people ask about fruit and I always say well if if eating some fruits is like the worst that you do that’s not that bad right it’s really all the added sugars and it comes in a lot of processed foods that you don’t even see you know like sauces and stuff you don’t think you’re getting a lot of you are so really sticking to kind of Whole Foods and unprocessed foods is still I think advice that we can kind of all agree um number two I think is too if it’s too hard then just don’t eat right so increasing the amount of fasting periods right and it doesn’t mean that you do like forty days and forty nights right it means that you know maybe you cut out a few of the snacks because snacks tend to be highly processed because there’s you know they’re not full meals right it’s not like you’re getting going out and buying a piece of salmon and frying it up it’s just something at snack right yo you grab it it’s a cookie or something and it tends to have a lot of these processed foods so cutting out all the snacking is probably the main thing and then the third thing is like the breakfast the breakfast is that the big one I think because everybody’s trying to get somewhere at breakfast times and nobody has time that’s why you eat toast and jam or muffin or a donut or whatever it is it’s always highly processed carbohydrates usually with a lot of sugar right and so if it’s too difficult to like make some eggs for breakfast or something then don’t just go right through the funny part I think about fast breakfast it’s not the very word itself actually tells you it’s what meal that breaks you’re fast it’s not you have to eat it first thing in the morning you can break your fast at 12 o’clock right you can break your fast at dinnertime if you want but the other thing it implies is that you have to fast every day because we can’t break the fast if you’re not fasting so it means that what they recognized you know again so many years ago is that fasting is a part of everyday life it’s really just a flipside of eating right then those have to be in balance the time you’re eating and the time you’re fasting it’s part of everyday life and we’ve gone from you know nothing after dinner to kind of breakfast we just like a 12 hour fast every day to like oh just eat all the time eat until you go to bed and first thing you get up start eating right and then you’re gonna lose that weight that way you really think so I don’t so again you know in terms of cutting out the sugars breakfast is a big one right there’s a lot of sugars a lot of processing lot of processed foods they’re snacks I think if you can do that’s that’s that gets you kind of a long way towards added sugar that is they’re phenomenal and top three tips there and I think therefore the breakfast wasn’t I think so many people still think that you will grab business important meal of the day and I think we should we got away from from really even understanding what it means and so Jason thank you so much for your time I think this has been I mean Carl I totally stay here all evening or afternoon from you and you just such a wealth of knowledge and I would HIGHLY highly encourage everybody to go and get this book it’s fun really probably one of the best I have read in the faith and so and everywhere I think you can it’s available worldwide and Amazon is that right Jason Ohio not really it doesn’t come out till end of April but available UK I don’t know about South Africa I asked we can buy there the e-book from Amazon on Kindle okay cuz I think it’s the same publisher for the UK as South Africa described and they said that it should be available but I don’t know when they’re night on one of the the participants and she got the eBook version on Amazon and we are always a little bit behind but I will try and find it in the bookstores and posted on on this patch I did post an offer here on our page where you can click through to the Amazon site and get it now it is worth every cent it is absolutely phenomenal and guess who wrote the foreword our very own products and means the book is brilliant thank you again so much Jason and we love to have you here thank you Jason and thanks everybody for tuning in and we’ll be back soon bye

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